From iad@MATH.BAS.BG Sun Aug 27 01:16:07 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 17046 invoked from network); 27 Aug 2000 08:16:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 27 Aug 2000 08:16:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lnd.internet-bg.net) (212.124.64.2) by mta3 with SMTP; 27 Aug 2000 08:16:05 -0000 Received: from math.bas.bg (ppp80.internet-bg.net [212.124.66.80]) by lnd.internet-bg.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA14664 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:29:36 +0300 Message-ID: <39A8CF80.BF94A9F@math.bas.bg> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:21:20 +0300 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] World-historical and religious figures in Lojban References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: Ivan A Derzhanski pycyn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 00-08-25 13:11:33 EDT, iad writes: > << (What was the story about {-,dz.}? Is that acceptable? > If not, I'll suggest {kunfu'ydz.}.) >> > > I don't think it is, alas and I think there is nothing to > prevent a thoroughly CV person from say /dIz/ for /dz/. Then I conclude that {dz}, {dj}, {ts}, {tc} are unsuitable for representing the affricates of other languages. I'm always annoyed by the way Nahuatl final _tl_ (as in the name of Popocatepetl the volcano, or the language itself) is rendered in Bulgarian as _tøl_ (with a schwa in the middle). They say this is done because ` ' is not a permissible final cluster in Bulgarian. My objection is that the Nahuatl _tl_ is an affricate (unlike the English /tl/ in _Seattle_, say, which rightfully becomes _Siatøl_ in Bulgarian), and the rendering of an affricate as a stop plus a fricative or approximant very much depends on the fact that they will be strictly adjacent. > that latter aside, I don't find (and thought aulun was game too) > kunfudz all that bad, thoug kunfu,ydz might be safer. It's three syllables in Chinese; I want that to come across. > It appears that the no ndz rule applies even to names, so juandz > is out. The reasoning, I think, was that it was too hard to > distinguish from simple nz for many speakers (hard to taime the > nasalization to quick before the stop is released). That is true. Fricatives do tend to become affricates after sonorant consonants (nasals and liquids). Happens sporadically in German, but is a rule in Yiddish (De _unser_ --> Yd _undzer_ `our', De _falsch_ --> Yd _falch_ `false'); also in Mordvin and other languages. > And Lojban does not recognize the sibilants as syllabic, > so juan,dz won't work either -- and probably falls under > the same ban anyhow. Then let's try {juan,yz.}. --Ivan