Subject: Re: World-historical and religious figures in Lojban

From: "Alfred W. Tueting (Tüting)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 15:50:46 -0000

--- In [email-masked], Ivan A Derzhanski <iad@M...> wrote:
> pycyn@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 00-08-25 13:11:33 EDT, iad writes:
> > << (What was the story about {-,dz.}? Is that acceptable?
> > If not, I'll suggest {kunfu'ydz.}.) >>
> > 
> > I don't think it is, alas and I think there is nothing to
> > prevent a thoroughly CV person from say /dIz/ for /dz/.
> 
> Then I conclude that {dz}, {dj}, {ts}, {tc} are unsuitable for
> representing the affricates of other languages.

In my opinion, {kunfu'ydz.} or even {kunfu'yz.} would be hardly
acceptable - not for the Lojban morphology, but the sound 
expressed by this form far far off from original pronunciation. I
won't believe that lojban really restricts its users to names like 
these (on the other hand allowing lujvo with consonant clusters that
are - even for my German tongue! - near to unpronouncable). 
This would be pretty strange for a conlang first of all meant for and
dedicated to people!
BTW, the forms {kundz.}, {kun.dz.} parsed, whereas {kunfu,dz.}
didn't. (Even {dz.} - if I remember right - was accepted as cmene, 
yet I'm not sure how reliable the parser works with regard to
morphology.

> I'm always annoyed by the way Nahuatl final _tl_ (as in the name
> of Popocatepetl the volcano, or the language itself) is rendered
> in Bulgarian as _tøl_ (with a schwa in the middle). They say
this
> is done because `<stop> <liquid>' is not a permissible final cluster
> in Bulgarian. My objection is that the Nahuatl _tl_ is an
affricate...

I also feel so, think of the initial _tl_ in Tlingit

> It's three syllables in Chinese; I want that to come across.

That's it: or at least two in Kung-tzu (which is *Master* Kung).

> > It appears that the no ndz rule applies even to names, so juandz
> > is out. The reasoning, I think, was that it was too hard to
> > distinguish from simple nz for many speakers (hard to taime the
> > nasalization to quick before the stop is released).

This kindly caring might be okay for normal brivla, but hardly for
Names, (see above!).
 
> (...)Fricatives do tend to become affricates after sonorant
> consonants (nasals and liquids). Happens sporadically in German,
but
> is a rule in Yiddish (De _unser_ --> Yd _undzer_ `our', De _falsch_
> --> Yd _falch_ `false'); also in Mordvin and other languages.

That's interesting, yet lojban shouldn't care too much ;) about that.
>From the example of Austrian pronunciation of the word 
_Tunnel_ (Germ.: about /tun,l/ Austrian: almost /tun,dl/) one
perhaps might see that tendency also between nasals and liquids.  

> Then let's try {juan,yz.}.

Not! Pleeeeze!

aulun.