From dbtwery@bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 03 03:20:51 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 8191 invoked from network); 3 Sep 2000 10:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 3 Sep 2000 10:20:50 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net) (199.45.39.156) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 Sep 2000 10:20:50 -0000 Received: from voyou (adsl-141-151-17-240.bellatlantic.net [141.151.17.240]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA09343 for ; Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003001c01590$841338a0$aa45fea9@voyou> To: References: <20000903064455.A5DDF26333@mail.taral.net> Subject: Re: [lojban] samselpla vs. samjva Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 06:19:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "David Twery" ----- Original Message ----- From: Taral Sent: Sunday, 03 September 2000 02:44 Perhaps a lujvo for "algorithm" is needed (e.g. "immaterial machine"), and a "computer program" can be "skami ". How does that sound? --- dbt: The Big Question is probably: How many lujvo do we need for the field of computer science? Many! For example -- a lot of people would argue that an algorithm is "instantiated" as a program. Or some such. That there are different kinds of programming that need lujvo. That there are probably different senses of programming, computer and otherwise, that could benefit from lujvo. My personal first take on the English word "program" was that there could be non-computational programs, and that the use of "program" in computing came about because the older meaning was close to what the early programmers thought they were doing. What I do when I make lujvo is to gather as many words together that represent parts of the meaning -- kind of like working with a "semantic cloud". From there, I pick out numerous tanru and make several lujvo. I might eventually get several lujvo for the same word, but with different senses, especially if I feel those are significant differences. We should all make plenty of lujvo, assemble the place structures, and propose them with maybe a few words of advocacy. Eventually, a subset of these lujvo will find its way into "common" Lojbanic use. And if a bad lujvo gets picked up, someone can invent a better one. As xod pointed out, there are two schools of thought emerging on using "zmadu" in lujvo to indicate augmentation. I think that issues like this will eventually become matters of precision in expression and stylistics, once enough of us are using the language at an expert level. Inelegant, clumsy, unpopular or outright bad lujvo will not see much action beyond "nonce" use. When you think about it, this is how neologisms come into the English language. "Contraterrene" was the original word for anti-matter; then came "mirror matter", and finally "anti-matter". In fifty years, the words "nanotechnology", "meme", and "SETI" may sound quaint and old-fashioned. The "mapping" between Lojban "lujvo space" and pre-existing words in other languages, is likely to be many-to-many, not one-to-one. Anyway ... wrapping it all up (and I do tend to become a bit unwrapped at times) ... I think the best way is to make as many lujvo as possible without being caught up in finding a "perfect word". Eventually (pretty fast, I think), Lojban warps everybody's mind to begin to think in Lojbanic ways. At all points, lujvo work is valuable. --d