From iad@MATH.BAS.BG Wed Sep 13 00:32:09 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 14043 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2000 07:32:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m1.onelist.org with QMQP; 13 Sep 2000 07:32:09 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO argo.bas.bg) (195.96.224.7) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Sep 2000 07:32:02 -0000 Received: from banmatpc.math.bas.bg (root@banmatpc.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.2]) by argo.bas.bg (8.11.0/8.11.0/Debian 8.11.0-6) with ESMTP id e8D7Vq816566 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:31:57 +0300 Received: from iad.math.bas.bg (iad.math.bas.bg [195.96.243.88]) by banmatpc.math.bas.bg (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27300 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:31:51 +0300 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <39BF16D6.3202A19F@math.bas.bg> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:55:34 +0300 X-Mozilla-Draft-Info: internal/draft; vcard=0; receipt=0; uuencode=0; html=0; linewidth=0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] ... and rape References: <20000912211446.26240.qmail@pi.meson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ivan A Derzhanski "Mark E. Shoulson" wrote: > For no satisfactory reason, I was puttering > with translating "rape" into Lojban, and generally non-consent. [...] > Well, generally, finding a word for "non-consensual" isn't easy! > {zifre} is glossed as "willingly," but its definition doesn't mean > that; I can't take {tolzifre} to mean "unwillingly" but "required." Make sure you don't lose track of what applies to whom. The one who is known to be participating unwillingly is the rapee. (The rapist may also -- you can force someone to rape someone else -- but that's not the point.) > We need the (futile) *resistance* to such force in this case [...]. Do we? Surely resistance is not always there. > Other choices include {vlile}--which could just mean violent but > consensual, I don't think so. Look at the definition: `x1 is an event/state/act of violence'. Do you think that covers sadomasochism? John Cowan wrote: > How about "narcrugle" from "na curmi gletu", with place structure > "x1 does not permit that x1 copulates with x2"? And whence does it follow that the said act does take place in spite of x1's failure to permit it? The definition of {curmi} (`x1 (agent) lets/permits/allows x2 (event) under conditions x3; x1 grants privilege x2') makes it sound as though if the privilege is not granted, the event doesn't happen. --Ivan