From kencomer@hotmail.com Wed Sep 13 12:29:21 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 30753 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2000 18:29:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m3.onelist.org with QMQP; 13 Sep 2000 18:29:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (209.185.241.174) by mta3 with SMTP; 13 Sep 2000 18:29:00 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:29:00 -0700 Received: from 208.140.33.251 by lw3fd.law3.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:29:00 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.140.33.251] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] rape Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 18:29:00 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2000 18:29:00.0329 (UTC) FILETIME=[7C4DB190:01C01DB0] From: "Ken Comer" > > Moving on abruptly to rape. For no satisfactory reason, I was >puttering > > with translating "rape" into Lojban, [...] > >I suggest "zergletu", by analogy with "zerle'a" (steal). .ui o'aru'e ga'inai co'i rodo Crime is, perforce, a cultural and political bias. In Texas, consensual sex involving tongue and/or rectum is a crime, as are a variety of other practices which are not "rape," and at least one crime is *called* rape even though it is neither coerced nor violent (sex with someone under, I think, age 17 is referred to as "statutory rape" even when it is consensual). Making a parallel with "bribe," (bapgletu) for "compelled fuck" seems reasonable to me. I don't consider there to be significant difference between compelling someone by force, by threat of force, or by threat of other retribution. The argument against (bapgletu) made earlier was that (bapli) was "force" and that it is possible to "force" someone to do something that he/she wants to do. Personally, if I grab my lover in a way that apparently removes all of her choices in the matter of how, when and if we have sex, this is still not "force" because: a) if she objects and calls out for me to stop, the "apparent" lack of choice becomes a very real exercise of choice and I will stop; and b) if I do not heed her request/command to stop, it is not "apparent" lack of choice -- it is "real" lack of choice and therefore "rape". If you compel sex -- *really* and not *apparently* -- it is "rape" by the use of the word that (I think) would transcend cultural boundaries. Similarly, I don't actually have to beat you or tie you up to compel you to sexual intercourse in a way that would be justifiably called "rape." If I hold a pistol to your ear or strap dynamite to your child, (etc.) it's still "rape." I am new to lojban, but either (bapgletu [bapli gletu]) or (zerbapgletu [zekri bapli gletu]) seems to have the appropriate structure and descriptive characteristics. la ken komer _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.