Subject: Re: [lojban] Eating glass, events ...

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 00:16:55 GMT

la ivAn cusku di'e

>The En word _hurt_ has as I see it at least five loosely related meanings:
>
>(a) `wound, make an opening in the skin';
>(b) `cause physical pain';
>(c) `have an adverse physical effect (perhaps in the long term)';
>(d) `have an adverse non-physical effect';
>(e) `cause non-physical pain'.

I think {xrani} covers (a), (c) and (d). {xrani} is not directly
related to pain, it is possible to be injured/harmed/damaged/wounded
and not feel pain. (b) and (e) would be covered by {crogau},
{crori'a}.

>I'd say (c) (and the contributor of the Bg translation on that page
>thinks so too, although he has used a word that I consider obsolete
>-- I don't use it, anyway).

I checked the Spanish translation and there are two given, first
one with the (b) sense and then one for (c), with the comment
that (c) is probably more correct. I think I agree. It seems that
to get the (b) meaning in English it should be "it doesn't hurt".
"It doesn't hurt me" does seem to refer to harm more than
to pain.

> > mi ka'e citka loi blaci .i la'edi'u na xrani mi
>
>To my ears this sounds like `it doesn't wound me', and will do so until
>I'm very explicitly told that it shouldn't.

It shoudn't. :)

>Perhaps it is the prominent
>Russian participation (60% of the gismu hooking to _ran-_ `wound', which
>can't mean either (b) or (c)). Looks like hooks can hook both ways.

I wonder if Spanish "dañar" had a participation in {xrani} too.
In any case, the x3 of xrani suggests that it can be any kind
of damage, not only physical wounds, and it makes sense to take
the more general sense anyway.

>I suspect, however, that in Lojban {ka'e} may mean `be physically
>able to commit the act, whatever the consequences', and if so,
>{mi ka'e citka loi blaci} would seem trivially true.

Yes, that's true. It seems that Michael's {e'e} would
work much better. Except that I have got used to using {e'e}
as an exhortative, for lack of anything better, so I read
{e'e citka lo blaci} as "Eat glass, you can do it!" rather
than the intended "I eat glass, I can do it!". Since all
the other e-attitudinals are imperatives I think my use
is justified. And some exhortative is necessary anyway.

co'o mi'e xorxes

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