From mark@kli.org Wed Sep 13 20:09:39 2000 Return-Path: Received: (qmail 24679 invoked from network); 14 Sep 2000 03:09:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m7.onelist.org with QMQP; 14 Sep 2000 03:09:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pi.meson.org) (209.191.39.185) by mta2 with SMTP; 14 Sep 2000 03:09:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 28586 invoked by uid 1000); 14 Sep 2000 03:04:22 -0000 Date: 14 Sep 2000 03:04:22 -0000 Message-ID: <20000914030422.28585.qmail@pi.meson.org> To: lojban@egroups.com In-reply-to: <39BF16D6.3202A19F@math.bas.bg> (message from Ivan A Derzhanski on Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:55:34 +0300) Subject: Re: [lojban] ... and rape References: <20000912211446.26240.qmail@pi.meson.org> <39BF16D6.3202A19F@math.bas.bg> From: "Mark E. Shoulson" >From: Ivan A Derzhanski >Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 08:55:34 +0300 > > >"Mark E. Shoulson" wrote: >> For no satisfactory reason, I was puttering >> with translating "rape" into Lojban, and generally non-consent. >[...] >> Well, generally, finding a word for "non-consensual" isn't easy! >> {zifre} is glossed as "willingly," but its definition doesn't mean >> that; I can't take {tolzifre} to mean "unwillingly" but "required." > >Make sure you don't lose track of what applies to whom. The one who >is known to be participating unwillingly is the rapee. (The rapist >may also -- you can force someone to rape someone else -- but that's >not the point.) Right, that's borrowing confusion. >> We need the (futile) *resistance* to such force in this case [...]. > >Do we? Surely resistance is not always there. Mm. It was in my mind, I guess. Is someone too scared to do anything not resisting, or does her impotent, unexpressed unwillingness constitute resistance? Probably not. So "unwillingness" would have been a better word than "resistance." And that's really what I was thinking about: consent and its lack. >> Other choices include {vlile}--which could just mean violent but >> consensual, > >I don't think so. Look at the definition: `x1 is an event/state/act >of violence'. Do you think that covers sadomasochism? Couldn't it? You can be violent consensually. Boxers are violent with each other, but it's part of the game and they expect it. ~mark