Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:rape, etc.

From: "Ken Comer" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 19:10:12 GMT

>In a message dated 00-09-15 12:48:19 EDT, ken writes:
><< As a non-professional philosopher, I could point out that, if you spread
> your legs, you are giving permission, and I would also say that
> applies whether or not someone is holding a gun to your head. >>
>Thanks. I'm not sure that I would go that far down the line about where
>permission occurs, but it does help to make the point about the difference
>between permission and consent that I was looking for.

Looking at a dictionary will show that -- generally speaking --
"permission" is merely "formal consent." In essence, "permission"
is "consent." Looking an on-line dictionary, I garnered the following 
examples of "NON-wilful" consent/permission quotations:

My poverty, but not my will, consents. --Shak.

And whispering ``I will ne'er consent,'' -- consented. --Byron.

Admittedly, this is a sense of the word that is less customary, but --
viewed logically and rationally -- if you are willing to put any
price less than the painful death of you and all you hold dear on something, 
there is a limit at which you will grant permission for that thing. The 
nasty saying, "If rape is inevitable, you might as well lie back and enjoy 
it" has truth to it. (Later, you should get a dozen Texans to show him how 
we make a steer from a bull, but that's not pertinent to the neoligism in 
question.) If *I* pull your legs apart
and chain you that way, you have given no consent. If *you* pull your
legs apart of your own volition, you have given consent (however
reluctantly, unhappily, or under what type of duress).

The key element is not your consent. The key is, did I *compel* you?

>So the etymology has
>a role here, pointing to the notion of willing agreement with the intention
>of the act, which is lacking in the forced cases. So what does Lojban have
>to offer here? Note: {tugni} is no help.

I already answered this and invited a rebuttal based on facts. Simply
assume that if it is a "forced case" there is a lack of wilful consent
and refer to it as (bapgletu).

If you still have it, please put either send my other post back to me or
forward it to the egroup. I forgot that the current set-up for the lojban 
egroup sends to the poster rather than the egroup.

la ken.komyr.
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