From graywyvern@hotmail.com Thu Oct 19 12:07:31 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: graywyvern@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_1_0); 19 Oct 2000 19:07:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 16829 invoked from network); 19 Oct 2000 19:07:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Oct 2000 19:07:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.237.226) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Oct 2000 19:07:30 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 12:07:29 -0700 Received: from 209.176.48.59 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:07:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.176.48.59] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: literalism [was: Re: [lojban] Re: looking at arjlujv.txt Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:07:29 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Oct 2000 19:07:29.0792 (UTC) FILETIME=[D3B8C800:01C039FF] From: "michael helsem" >From: pycyn@aol.com li'o >Literalism TO LE SATCI LUJVO SE JINVI TOI >tends >to think in terms of a very small number of possibilities and then to >object >if a case does not fit any of those possibilities or even if another word >fits those possibilities better. what i object to is the prospect of having to live with a dictionary full of words that don't mean what they're supposed to mean. even if this sort of semantic drift has occurred repeatedly in english (since e.g. the era of LA GRANA DESKU), it is still possible to specify the register of english that is being used, with key words not found outside it. i can see how the shortened sort of lujvo might become, not "slang" (since that already presupposes a lot of uses that don't yet exist in lojban) but something like slang that signals its own context; however this distinction depends on having the longer, more accurate forms available for the same meanings... li'o >And most >ugly ones come about -- not strange to say >-- in the belief that they are being "accurate / literal / >definitional." TOLMELBI FO MA --i can see a good case for, lojbanically, precision & clarity seeming more beautiful than imprecision... li'o >Probably one of the prides of >the old days, however, was "blade hammer" for "hatchet, ax". Now, this is really becoming a discussion about kennings. Kennings, i'll be the first to agree, are fascinating. But are they lojbanic? Would native lojbanists, even, ever have wanted to go beyond SIMSA to full-fledged metaphors? And if we insist on using kennings, i still think MELA BRODA BRODE is the cat's pyjamas. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.