From jjllambias@hotmail.com Thu Oct 26 15:04:04 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_2_0); 26 Oct 2000 22:04:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 17819 invoked from network); 26 Oct 2000 22:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Oct 2000 22:04:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.115) by mta1 with SMTP; 26 Oct 2000 22:04:03 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:04:03 -0700 Received: from 200.42.117.137 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:04:03 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.42.117.137] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: literalism Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:04:03 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2000 22:04:03.0915 (UTC) FILETIME=[A733E9B0:01C03F98] From: "Jorge Llambias" la xod cusku di'e >It is beautiful and true, but I don't think the truth is beautiful. Big >difference! Of course, you're playing with words. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't translate well into Lojban. Your contrast of {melbi je fatci} vs. {melbi fatci} didn't make much sense to me. They mean just about the same. An awful truth can be beautufully expressed. The expression is beautiful, the thing expressed is awful. >Can a sentence be true? In English? Yes. The word "sentence" can refer both to the expression, the words, and to the thing expressed, the meaning. In Lojban I don't know, it depends how you ask the question. Actually Lojban is messy in this regard too, although it tries somewhat unsuccessfully to clear it up. It starts with the wrong foot by having the simplest words (di'u, di'e, etc.) refer to the least useful concept. We usually want to talk about what we express with sentences, not about the sentences themselves. And to make things worst it is difficult to know for many predicates whether they are intended to be used with {di'u} or {la'e di'u}. >That topic will surely last us a few weeks of debate, no? i ie go'i va'o le nu ma'a za'o pilno le glico co'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.