From xod@sixgirls.org Thu Oct 26 15:13:50 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_2_0); 26 Oct 2000 22:13:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 2076 invoked from network); 26 Oct 2000 22:13:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m2.onelist.org with QMQP; 26 Oct 2000 22:13:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO erika.sixgirls.org) (209.208.150.50) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Oct 2000 22:13:48 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by erika.sixgirls.org (8.11.0+3.3W/8.9.3) with ESMTP id e9QMDk522482 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:13:46 -0400 (EDT) To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: literalism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself On Thu, 26 Oct 2000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > la xod cusku di'e > > >It is beautiful and true, but I don't think the truth is beautiful. Big > >difference! > > Of course, you're playing with words. Nothing wrong with that, > but it doesn't translate well into Lojban. Your contrast of > {melbi je fatci} vs. {melbi fatci} didn't make much sense > to me. They mean just about the same. .i na tugni .i le jufra cu melbi .i le jufra cu fatci .i le du'u go'i cu tolmelbi > > An awful truth can be beautufully expressed. The expression > is beautiful, the thing expressed is awful. > mi ba'o troci cusku la'e di'u > >Can a sentence be true? > > In English? Yes. The word "sentence" can refer both to the > expression, the words, and to the thing expressed, the meaning. > In Lojban I don't know, it depends how you ask the question. > > Actually Lojban is messy in this regard too, although it tries > somewhat unsuccessfully to clear it up. It starts with the wrong > foot by having the simplest words (di'u, di'e, etc.) refer to > the least useful concept. We usually want to talk about what > we express with sentences, not about the sentences themselves. > And to make things worst it is difficult to know for many > predicates whether they are intended to be used with {di'u} > or {la'e di'u}. > ji'u la'e di'u cumki fa le du'u mi puza drani > >That topic will surely last us a few weeks of debate, no? > > i ie go'i va'o le nu ma'a za'o pilno le glico .iseni'ibo mi'o stali le za'i lojbo ----- "...widespread, systematic and gross violations of human rights perpetrated by the Israeli occupying power, in particular mass killings...measures which constitute...crimes against humanity.'' UN Commission on Human Rights, 19 Oct 2000