From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Nov 18 09:49:37 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_2_1); 18 Nov 2000 17:49:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 78811 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2000 17:49:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Nov 2000 17:49:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mu.egroups.com) (10.1.1.40) by mta1 with SMTP; 18 Nov 2000 17:49:36 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.2.74] by mu.egroups.com with NNFMP; 18 Nov 2000 17:49:36 -0000 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 17:49:32 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: And? Message-ID: <8v6ffc+m81n@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <00111619232510.20128@neofelis> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 2741 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, Pierre Abbat wrote: > I looked through the cmavo list to see how many ways there are to say "an= =3D=0D d" in > Lojban. Here's what I found: >=20 > ce Alice, Bob, and their daughter are a small family. > ce'o Put the water and the acid in the beaker... Here are some examples of using "and/und" in English/German and Chin ese la= =3D=0D nguage, all pretty idiomatic: und? - well? na und? - so (what)? und ob! - you bet! und so weiter (und so fort) - and so on (and so forth) und und und - I could go on and on er will es nicht (he doesn't want it) und ich auch nicht - (neither) nor do= =3D=0D I ich und Tennisspielen? - me play tennis? du und flei=DFig? - you hardworking? und wenn (auch) - even if ... sagte er und l=E4chelte - ... he said, smiling er fragte und fragte - he (just) kept on asking wir =FCberlegten und =FCberlegten - we racked our brains und wenn du mich zehnmal fragst - however (or: no matter how) many times yo= =3D=0D u ask me there are books and books - es gibt gute und schlechte B=FCcher nice and warm - sch=F6n warm skin and all - mitsamt der Haut a little more and... - es fehlte nicht viel, so... try and come - versuchen Sie zu kommen Und dabei bleibt es! - And that's that! Und dabei ist er doch schon alt! - And he's an old man, after all! In German language, this initial "und" is very common in Bible quotes and b= =3D=0D ook titles like in that of the Norwegian novelist's Knud=20 Hamsun "Und ewig singen die W=E4lder..." (And forever the woods are singing= /h=3D=0D umming...). Is this "and/und" somehow comparable to lojban {.i}? In Chinese, the function of German/English "und/and" is given by different = =3D=0D means; here are some examples: 1) =A9M, =AAP or =85O (he2, yu234 or yu3): =A8K=A7=97=A9M=C6L=A7=97 chuntian he xiatian (spring and summer) =DFA=A9M=DF/ ni he wo (you and me); =3D=99=AAP=BAg du yu xie (reading and writing); but: and so on: =B5=95=B5=95 deng2deng3, and the like: *=97=B6p=B6*i=CB zhu1 ru2 ci3 lei4 2) =AE*=95B (bing1qie3), =B6" (er2), =B6"=95B (er2 qie3): "They gave him their last piece of bread, and they did so despite being hun= =3D=0D gry themselves" (er2qie3), "I'm fine! And how are you?" (er2) =DF/=AE*=3D=C8=B4=D0=B6n=B0A=B6"=B1z=A9O= =B0H (wo shenti hen hao,=3D=0D er2 nin2 ne?) 3) =95[ (jia1): "two and/plus two is four" =A7G=95[=A7G=B5=95=A9=DB=95| (er4 jia1 er4 deng3= yu2 si4) 4) =B4o (que4), =B5M=B6" (ran2 er2): "All are leaving, and I (still) will have to stay?" =A7j=C6a*=A3=AE=B4=A7F= =B0A=B4o*n=DF/=D8d=A7U=B0=3D=0D H (da4 jia1 dou1 zou3 le, que4 yao4 wo3 liu2 xia4=20 ?) "It's hardly believable, and still it is true" ... =B5M=B6"=AE*=B1=B0*T=A8O= =B6p=B6* (...ran=3D=0D 2er2 shi4qing2 que4 shi4 ru2ci3) I'll try to get the Lojban examples translated to Chinese. .aulun.