From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Fri Dec 01 13:26:09 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 1 Dec 2000 21:26:09 -0000 Received: (qmail 13661 invoked from network); 1 Dec 2000 21:25:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Dec 2000 21:25:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fl.egroups.com) (10.1.10.48) by mta1 with SMTP; 1 Dec 2000 21:25:56 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.2.211] by fl.egroups.com with NNFMP; 01 Dec 2000 21:25:56 -0000 Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 21:25:32 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: "common" words Message-ID: <90950c+t27f@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3A275924.94043705@math.bas.bg> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4012 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: > Jorge Llambias wrote: > > The Lojban version seems to contain much more than the English > > one. Can "intimate" by itself really mean "familiar with one's > > music"? >=20 > The problem is that the English version doesn't say what the Chinese says= =3D=0D . > The title is _zhi1 yin1 he2 chu4 xun2_ lit. `know sound what place seek',= =3D=0D > that is, `Where to look for a connoisseur of music'. No, it isn't sufficient to "translate" each of the two Chinese words separa= =3D=0D tely, the compound's semantics indeed is "intimate friend", one has=20 to know this! Yet, just reading the English equivalent means to lose the v= =3D=0D ery _concrete_ meaning behind this expression, i.e. a whole story,=20 which goes like this: "=A1=A7=A6n=A7r=A1I=A4@=A4=F9=A8L=A8L=A1A=A6n=A6=FC=A6=BF=AAe=A1C=A1=A8=20 "Oh, how excellent! A vast expanse of flowing waters, it's like a stream, i= =3D=0D ndeed!"=20 =20=20 =A4@=A4=D1=A1A=A7B=A4=FA=A9M=C4=C1=A4l=B4=C1=A8=EC=A4@=AEy=A4j=A4s=AA=BA=A5= _=AD=B1=B9C=AA=B1=A1A=20 One day, Po-ya and Chung Tzu-ch'i went on a pleasure outing together to the= =3D=0D north slope of a big mountain,=20 =B9J=A4W=BC=C9=ABB=A1A=A5L=AD=CC=A6b=A5=DB=A4U=C1=D7=ABB=A1A=20 when all of a sudden coming into a cloudburst. After having found shelter u= =3D=0D nder the precipice of a rock,=20 =A7B=A4=FA=A4S=A6b=BCu=B0_=B5^=A8=D3=A1C=20 Po-ya again began to play on his Ch'in.=20 =B6}=A9l=BCu=A7=CE=AEe=B3s=C4=F2=A4U=A4j=ABB=AA=BA=AD=B5=BC=D6=A1A=20 Playing his instrument, he began to describe the music of the heavy rain's = =3D=0D incessant pouring down,=20 =AB=E1=A8=D3=A4S=BCu=A4=CF=ACM=A4s=B1Y=AA=BA=BC=D6=BD=D5=A1A=20 and, later on, he went on playing to picture the melody of the mountain's l= =3D=0D andslide.=20 =C4=C1=A4l=B4=C1=B3=A3=A7=B9=A5=FE=C5=A5=A5X=A4F=A8=E4=A4=A4=AA=BA=B7N=AB= =E4=A1C=20 Chung Tzu-ch'i listened to his playing, getting all the deep sense from it.= =3D=0D =20 =A7B=A4=FA=AC=B0=A6=B9=A4Q=A4=C0=B7P=B0=CA=A1A=20 Po-ya (becoming aware of this) was very moved,=20 =BB{=AC=B0=C4=C1=A4l=B4=C1=ACO=B3=CC=AF=E0=BB=E2=B7|=A5L=AA=BA=A4=DF=AD=B5= =AA=BA=A4H=A1C=20 realizing that Chung Tzu-ch'i had the very ability to comprehend the sound = =3D=0D of his heart.=20 =20=20 =AB=E1=A8=D3=A1A=C4=C1=A4l=B4=C1=A6=BA=A4F=A1A=A7B=A4=FA=AB=DC=B6=CB=A4=DF= =A1A=A4=A3=A6b=BCu=B5^=A1A=20 Later on, when Chung Tzu-ch'i had died, Po-ya was very distressed so he wou= =3D=0D ldn't play on his Ch'in any more,=20 =A6]=AC=B0=A5L=BB{=AC=B0=A8S=A6=B3=A4H=A4=F1=C4=C1=A4l=B4=C1=A7=F3=C0=B4=B1= o=A5L=AA=BA=AD=B5=BC=D6=A4F=A1C=20 since becoming aware of that there no longer would be a man like Chung Tzu-= =3D=0D ch'i to understand his music.=20 =20=20 =AB=E1=A8=D3=A1A=A4H=AD=CC=A4@=AA=BD=B6=C7=B3o=A6U=A1=A7=AA=BE=AD=B5=A1=A8= =ACG=A8=C6=A1A=A8=C3=A7=E2=A5=A6=A4=F1=B3=EB=B0=B5=A1=A7=AA=BE=A4v=A1=A8=A1= ]=AA=BE=A4=DF=A1B=AA=BE=AD=B5=A1^**=A6=A8=AC=B0=A4=3D=0D H=AD=CC=AA=BA=AC=FC=BD=CD=A1C=20 After that, this story of "Comprehending the music" ("chih yin") was spread= =3D=0D out by the people, and the metaphorical phrase "the one who knows me/my heart/my music" became a pretty saying *** = =3D=0D among them.=20 =20=20 =ACK=AC=EE=AE=C9=B4=C1=BC=D6=AEv=AD=CC=A7=F3=A5=CE=AA=BA=BC=D6=BE=B9=A4j=AC= =F9=A6=B3=A4G=A4Q=A6h=BA=D8=A1A=A6p=C4=C1=A1B=B9=AA=A1B=C2=AD=A1B=BA=DE=A8= =E4=A5=A6=A1C=20 In the "Spring and Autumn" period, there were played about more than twenty= =3D=0D other kinds of musical instruments like "chung" (clock), "ku" (drum), "hsiao" (flute), "kuan" (flute) etc.=20 =20=20 Notes:=20 * in good old German like in Chinese: "schlagen"=3D to beat/pluck, e.g. "di= e =3D=0D Leier schlagen" (lit. to beat the lute)=20 ** added by me=20 *** lit.: interesting anecdote=20 (tr. A.W. Tueting)"=20 > Btw, the Chinese describes Po-ya as _ren2_, not _nan2_, so {prenu} > is more precise than {nanmu}. Again no, since one has to consider the meaning of ren2 =A4H *in this conte= xt=3D=0D *: it isn't just "person", but "man" (human male)! One cannot stick=20 to *single* words meaning. Thanks for the comments of you all - and I agree. But still any advice on= =3D=0D "one day" (=A4@=A4=D1)? co'o mi'e .aulun.