From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sat Dec 02 10:52:28 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@egroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 2 Dec 2000 18:52:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 65899 invoked from network); 2 Dec 2000 18:52:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Dec 2000 18:52:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ef.egroups.com) (10.1.2.111) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Dec 2000 18:52:27 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.2.117] by ef.egroups.com with NNFMP; 02 Dec 2000 18:52:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2000 18:52:25 -0000 To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: "common" words Message-ID: <90bgd9+nscp@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <3A29187F.3CE773F8@math.bas.bg> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 1848 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Alfred_W._Tueting_(T=FCting)?=" --- In lojban@egroups.com, Ivan A Derzhanski wrote: > > > Btw, the Chinese describes Po-ya as _ren2_, not _nan2_, > > > so {prenu} is more precise than {nanmu}. > >=20 > > Again no, since one has to consider the meaning of ren2 =80H > > *in this context*: it isn't just "person", but "man" (human > > male)! One cannot stick to *single* words meaning. >=20 > Yet _ren2_ =80H is not the same thing as _nan2_ =A8k, is it? > Do I take it that in this context we know that the person > is male, because otherwise _n=FC3_ =80k would've been employed, > sort of when one says in German `Es war einmal ein Mensch', > and people know it wasn't a woman, because then one would > have said `... eine Frau'? Exactly, I think you hit the point. Besides, to Chinese readers (listener?)= =3D=0D the sex is quite obvious from the proper names. And, in=20 ancient China women didn't play that role they do today, thus it is clear f= =3D=0D rom context.=20 > If so, how strong a point does the narrator want to make of > the musician's sex? Note that the sex of the listener is > not so indicated; a {pendo} can be female as well as male. See above. It's mainly and above all the context. For instance, I have a Chinese love = =3D=0D song (from =AEH=A8* Shen3 Yue1) on my poetry site that I tried=20 to translate into Lojban. Each stanza begins with =E6=96=AE"=C6=85=B0B=E6= =96=DF=A7=C6=85=B0B=E6=96**=C6=85=B0B=E6=3D=0D =96*=8C=C6=85 yi4 lai2 shi, yi4 zuo4 shi, yi4 shi2 shi, yi4 shui4=20 shi respectively, which is translated into German as "(Ich) denke daran, wi= =3D=0D e (sie) kam, ... wie sie sa=DF, ... wie sie a=DF, ... wie sie=20 schlief" (morji lenu tolcliva, ... lenu zutse, ... lenu citka, ... lenu sip= =3D=0D na) - and still it is obvious that the song tells of a girl! co'o mi'e .aulun. P.S. My posting in response to xorxes. got lost :(( So here, just thanx for= =3D=0D your advice!