From jjllambias@hotmail.com Mon Dec 04 14:34:56 2000 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-6_3_1_2); 4 Dec 2000 22:34:55 -0000 Received: (qmail 13083 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2000 22:34:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Dec 2000 22:34:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.131) by mta2 with SMTP; 4 Dec 2000 22:34:31 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 Dec 2000 14:34:31 -0800 Received: from 200.42.153.220 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 04 Dec 2000 22:34:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.42.153.220] To: lojban@egroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] common words Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2000 22:34:31 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2000 22:34:31.0159 (UTC) FILETIME=[5E6F7870:01C05E42] From: "Jorge Llambias" la pier cusku di'e >selmifra: x1 is plaintext for x2 in code x3 >mifygau: x1 makes ciphertext x2 out of plaintext x3 using code x4 > >Now if "selmifygau" is selmif + gau, then it's >x1 makes plaintext x2 out of ciphertext x3 using code x4. That would be one way of seeing it, but it does not follow directly from the meaning of -gau. This is how I see it: {ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o mifygau}: {ko'a gasnu le nu ko'e ko'i ko'o mifra} {ko'a ko'e ko'i ko'o selmifygau}: {ko'a gasnu le nu ko'e ko'i ko'o selmifra} But those two say the same thing. There is nothing in {gasnu} that says how le gasnu makes le se gasnu happen, especially no connection with the order of places in the subclause. In theory then {mifygau} could mean both encode and decode, it could even mean "x1 works out a code x4 such that arbitrary text x2 is a coded form of arbitrary text x3". Anything that makes the three following arguments be in the mifra relationship. It just seems that "encode" might be the most useful meaning of the three for that lujvo. We could conventionally assign "decode" to {selmifygau} as well, of course, but then we are giving significance to the order of places in a clause, which is not usually significant in Lojban (quantifiers aside). To avoid all that we might use a more precise gismu instead of {gasnu}. Maybe {cupra}: mifpra: cupra lo mifra c1 c2=m1 m2 c3=m3 "x1 produces ciphertext x2 from plaintext x3 by process/codification procedure x4." selmifpra: cupra lo selmifra "x1 produces plaintext x2 from ciphertext x3 by process/decodification procedure x4." I still feel more comfortable with {mifygau}/{tolmifygau} though... co'o mi'e xorxes _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com