From ljm@ljm.qqjane.net Thu Feb 01 09:18:50 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: ljm@ljm.qqjane.net X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_2_1); 1 Feb 2001 17:18:50 -0000 Received: (qmail 88541 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2001 17:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Feb 2001 17:06:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ljm.qqjane.net) (211.21.57.29) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Feb 2001 18:07:27 -0000 Received: (from ljm@localhost) by ljm.qqjane.net (8.10.2/8.10.2) id f11H6Cp18509; Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:06:12 +0800 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:06:12 +0800 To: pycyn@aol.com Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] RE: apostrophic fits Message-ID: <20010202010612.A18478@ljm.qqjane.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Big5 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from pycyn@aol.com on Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 10:56:20AM -0500 From: Lin Zhemin The first problem is that I cannot read the special characters in your text... I can merely read Latin-1 (ISO8859-1) character set... IIRC, lojban prononciation is not precisely defined. I remember once I had discussed with Bob about lojban _r_, and he answered me that (in my own words) any utterance which can make one feel like hearing _r_ can be one of its prononciations. So that I don't think there is any prononciation, even the one written in the Referance Grammar, is standard. If I said the apostroph sign _'_ to be refered as a 'stop' or 'pause', I took it in convinience, since not everyone is linguist. In standard IPA, _'_ can be totally ignored: if I write a segment as [taim] (in narrow transcription), it should be only pronounced [taim], and not as what English native speaker may pronounce ([thai~m] where h is superscripted and i~ is an i with a tilde), and not as [taim] as other people may pronounce, where there is a glide between a and i. However I don't think the discussion would be useful for anyone who is not a linguist. In lojban, the alphabet x and ' are just different. x should be pronounced as [h] or [x], both are allophones of [x], and ' is not [h]. Try to pronounce coi and co'o, you don't pronounce the latter as "shoho" but "sho-o". However I had ever found some examples in the very first version of lojban tape, which are considered by me incorrect, such as _le du'u_ to be pronounced as _le duxu_ (you can even clearly hear the uvular fricative!) IPA theta ? Would you mean the sound like 'th' in English 'three'? Thu, 01 Feb 2001, la pycyn@aol.com(pycyn@aol.com) cusku di'e > The apostrophe is NOT a glottal stop or any kindof pause – such critters > function differently in Lojban.  It is a voiceless fricative different > fromall the others in the language (x,c,s,f)and it also should not be > confusablewith a glide between two vowels (/a’e/ should not be confusable > with /aie/, say).  The official line is that it is IPA[h].  However, many > speakers do notalways distinguish x from [h] (indeed [h] is an allophone of > /x/ even instandard Lojban) and [h] is often in effect a voiceless form of > the followingvowel, causing a glidelike sound when the following vowel is > almost anythingbut /a/ or /y/ (and maybe then, for all I can tell).  When > unclarity arises in either of these ways, I use andrecommend IPA theta (the > “th” sound most places except before “e” in English),which has neither of > these problems. Even I, however, cannot remember to use it until the problem > arises. -- Mes hommages et mes sentiments de tristesse aux peuples de l'Inde. Fingerprint20 = CE32 D237 02C0 FE31 FEA9 B858 DE8F AE2D D810 F2D9