From jcowan@reutershealth.com Tue Feb 13 12:52:07 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jcowan@reutershealth.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_3); 13 Feb 2001 20:51:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 81490 invoked from network); 13 Feb 2001 20:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Feb 2001 20:51:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mail.reutershealth.com) (204.243.9.36) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Feb 2001 20:51:51 -0000 Received: from reutershealth.com (IDENT:cowan@[192.168.3.11]) by mail.reutershealth.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24608; Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:53:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A899E73.4080501@reutershealth.com> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:52:03 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16-22 i686; en-US; 0.7) Gecko/20010119 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: And Rosta Cc: xod , lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:su'u References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Cowan And Rosta wrote: > 3 John believes le du'u da poi ke'a mamta mi cu mad > > (where John identifies the mad person as my mother) > > 4 da poi ke'a mamta mi zo'u John believes le du'u da is mad > > (where it is not John that identifies the person believed to > be mad as my mother). > > Thus Lojban can straightforwardly disambiguate for nonnames, > while for names, the closest approximation would be: > > 5 John believes le du'u da poi ke'a me la ortcut cu spy > > 6 da poi ke'a me la ortcut zo'u John believes le du'u da spy Indeed, that distinction does not work, because "la ortkut" means that which I (the speaker) call "Ortcutt". But we can convert it into a true predication thus: 5a la djan. -believes le du'u da poi selcme zo .ortkut. cu -spy i.e. John believes that what is named "Ortcutt" is a spy i.e. reference de dicto 5b da poi selcme zo .ortkut. zo'u la djan -believes le du'u da -spy i.e. there is something named "Ortcutt" that John believes to be a spy i.e. reference de re This presumes that John & the speaker don't disagree on the actual referent of "Ortcutt". -- There is / one art || John Cowan no more / no less || http://www.reutershealth.com to do / all things || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan with art- / lessness \\ -- Piet Hein