Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:su'u

From: John Cowan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:52:03 -0500

And Rosta wrote:

> 3 John believes le du'u da poi ke'a mamta mi cu mad
> 
> (where John identifies the mad person as my mother)
>

> 4 da poi ke'a mamta mi zo'u John believes le du'u da is mad
> 
> (where it is not John that identifies the person believed to
> be mad as my mother).
> 
> Thus Lojban can straightforwardly disambiguate for nonnames,
> while for names, the closest approximation would be:
> 
> 5 John believes le du'u da poi ke'a me la ortcut cu spy
> 
> 6 da poi ke'a me la ortcut zo'u John believes le du'u da spy

Indeed, that distinction does not work, because "la ortkut" means
that which I (the speaker) call "Ortcutt". But we can convert
it into a true predication thus:

5a la djan. -believes le du'u da poi selcme zo .ortkut. cu -spy
i.e. John believes that what is named "Ortcutt" is a spy
i.e. reference de dicto

5b da poi selcme zo .ortkut. zo'u la djan -believes le du'u da -spy
i.e. there is something named "Ortcutt" that John believes to be a spy
i.e. reference de re

This presumes that John & the speaker don't disagree on the actual
referent of "Ortcutt".

-- 
There is / one art || John Cowan <[email-masked]>
no more / no less || http://www.reutershealth.com
to do / all things || http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
with art- / lessness \\ -- Piet Hein