Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:su'u

From: "Jorge Llambias" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:11:26

la and cusku di'e

>John:
>#5a la djan. -believes le du'u da poi selcme zo .ortkut. cu -spy
>#i.e. John believes that what is named "Ortcutt" is a spy
>#i.e. reference de dicto
>#
>#5b da poi selcme zo .ortkut. zo'u la djan -believes le du'u da -spy
>#i.e. there is something named "Ortcutt" that John believes to be a spy
>#i.e. reference de re
>#
>#This presumes that John & the speaker don't disagree on the actual
>#referent of "Ortcutt".
>
>I'm surprised Jorge hasn't picked on this yet. Maybe it's nighttime
>in Argentina.

And I couldn't think of a better alternative.

>The problem with this is that the ambiguity is not necessarily
>about the name _Ortcutt_ per se. For example, if all John believes
>is that the head of MI5 is a spy, and I happen to know that the
>head of MI5 is Ortcutt, then (5b) would be appropriate but if
>John has clocked Ortcutt as a spy -- i.e. identified the individual
>-- but nonetheless does not know the *name* of that individual then
>I would want to use the de dicto reading but not the onomastically-
>based formulation that you propose. John's belief is that the
>possessor of Ortcuthood is a spy, not that the bearer of the name
>Ortcut is a spy.

Let's see if this works:

1) la djan krici le du'u da poi ckaji le ka me la ortkut cu mipryzu'e
John believes that something with the property of being
Ortcutt is a spy.

2) da poi ckaji le ka me la ortkut zo'u
la djan krici le du'u da mipryzu'e
There is something with the property of bring Ortcutt
that John believes to be a spy.

Here it is not necessary for John to know Ortcutt's name, and yet
I think 1) does require that John knows that the spy is Ortcutt.
Isn't this what you proposed first though?

co'o mi'e xorxes

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