From pycyn@aol.com Tue Mar 13 09:14:46 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 13 Mar 2001 17:14:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 45021 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 17:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2001 17:14:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r20.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.162) by mta1 with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 17:14:42 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.d2.39b91d6 (4573) for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:14:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:14:37 EST Subject: Almost 100 (spun from Train Catching) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_d2.39b91d6.27dfaf7d_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10501 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_d2.39b91d6.27dfaf7d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find myself in a xodish situation, trying to work out a new case by analogy with examples in The Book, in this case dealing with "almost 100" and working out of sections 8 and 9 of chapter 18. In the latter, apparently similar cases, like "at least 2" and "more than 2" are handled by {su'o re} and {za'u re}. Now, the list in that section doesn't include "almost" but does include "approximately", a slightly more general term in the same area. The previous section contains another case apparently related, {da'a} "all but" along with another group ro ... so'u that seem to be relative numbers dependent upon some groups size (the logics of these are a real pain, depending upon a set of parameters not very clearly motivated). But, since they all belong to the same grammatical class, it would seem that they could all be used in the same constructions and with roughly the same pattern of meaning. So, if {da'a} could be used like {su'o} to indicate "one less than" whatever number followed, it seems that {so'a} could be used similarly to indicate some number slightly less than whatever number followed, {so'a panono} for "almost 100" along with {da'a panono} for 99 (with a fuzz factor probably) and {su'e panono} for "at most 100" the others being in fact specifications of the last and sharing its grammar. But Lojbab says not (at least "I don't think so"). As near as I can figure out, his point is that the class these all belong to is that of the numerals and that, therefeore, these words are to be interpreted numerically. So that, for example, {so'a} is a number slightly less than the base, say 8 or 9 for base 10. {so'a panono} is either 8100 or 9100, with fuzz factors. And {panoso'a} is 108 or 109 or some other version of "almost 110" On this version, if generalized slightly (but without changing grammatical categories), {su'e re} ought to mean (n * 10)+2 for n from 0 to 9, disjoined, which it clearly not intention in TB.18.8. Since Lojbab notes that many of the strings involving things other than regular digits but in the same general class (PAs, of which there seem to be half a dozen varieties) we seem to ahve a certain amount of freedom here. There is apparently an established (but not in TB) pattern of these critters at the right end of strings serving as fuzzy numbers as indicated above: {soso'a} or {soda'a} as "almost 100" =ninety almost-base or "ninety base-but-one." For one group there is a clear modifier form for those on the left end: {ni'u re} = -2 ({re ni'u} apparently means 2 rounded downward or a little over 2?) and {su'o re} and the like from section 9. But these cases are in complementary distribution for the moment, so the do not conflict. We can, then, use {so'a panono} = as well as {soso'a} etc. as "almost 100" This leaves the problems of these words standing alone and in the middle of a string of PAs, fr the first of which most alrady ahve aclear meaning, for thes econd of which many do, and I expect, the rest will as the need arises. --part1_d2.39b91d6.27dfaf7d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find myself in a xodish situation, trying to work out a new case by analogy
with examples in The Book, in this case dealing with "almost 100" and working
out of  sections 8 and 9 of chapter 18.  In the latter, apparently similar
cases, like "at least 2" and "more than 2" are handled by {su'o re} and {za'u
re}.  Now, the list in that section doesn't include "almost" but does include
"approximately", a slightly more general term in the same area.  The previous
section contains another case apparently related, {da'a} "all but" along with
another group ro ... so'u that seem to be relative numbers dependent upon
some groups size (the logics of these are a real pain, depending upon a set
of parameters not very clearly motivated).  But, since they all belong to the
same grammatical class, it would seem that they could all be used in the same
constructions and with roughly the same pattern of meaning.  So, if {da'a}
could be used like {su'o} to indicate "one less than" whatever number
followed, it seems that {so'a} could be used similarly to indicate some
number slightly less than whatever number followed, {so'a panono} for "almost
100" along with {da'a panono} for 99 (with a fuzz factor probably) and {su'e
panono} for "at most 100" the others being in fact specifications of the last
and sharing its grammar.
But Lojbab says not (at least "I don't think so").  As near as I can figure
out, his point is that the class these all belong to is that of the numerals
and that, therefeore, these words are to be interpreted numerically.  So
that, for example, {so'a} is a number slightly less than the base, say 8 or 9
for base 10.  {so'a panono} is either 8100 or 9100, with fuzz factors. And
{panoso'a} is 108 or 109 or some other version of "almost 110"
On this version, if generalized slightly (but without changing grammatical
categories),
{su'e re} ought to mean  (n * 10)+2  for n from 0 to 9, disjoined, which it
clearly not intention in TB.18.8.
Since Lojbab notes that many of the strings involving things other than
regular digits but in the same general class (PAs, of which there seem to be
half a dozen varieties) we seem to ahve a certain amount of freedom here.  
There is apparently an established (but not in TB) pattern of these critters
at the right end of strings serving as fuzzy numbers as indicated above:
{soso'a} or {soda'a} as "almost 100" =ninety almost-base or "ninety
base-but-one."  For one group there is a clear modifier form for those on the
left end: {ni'u re} = -2 ({re ni'u} apparently means 2 rounded downward or a
little over 2?) and {su'o re} and the like from section 9.  But these cases
are in complementary distribution for the moment, so the do not conflict.  We
can, then, use {so'a panono} = as well as {soso'a} etc. as "almost 100"  This
leaves the problems of these words standing alone and in the middle of a
string of PAs, fr the first of which most alrady ahve aclear meaning, for
thes econd of which many do, and I expect, the rest will as the need arises.
--part1_d2.39b91d6.27dfaf7d_boundary--