From pycyn@aol.com Tue Mar 13 13:41:49 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 13 Mar 2001 21:41:49 -0000 Received: (qmail 40598 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2001 21:41:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Mar 2001 21:41:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m05.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.8) by mta3 with SMTP; 13 Mar 2001 22:42:41 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.48.12bece29 (14382) for ; Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:41:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <48.12bece29.27dfee02@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:41:22 EST Subject: RE:I almost caught the train To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_48.12bece29.27dfee02_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10501 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_48.12bece29.27dfee02_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subj: Re: [lojban] I almost caught the train=20=20 Date: 3/13/2001=20=20=20 To: xod@sixgirls.org=20=20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 In a message dated 3/13/2001 1:30:01 PM Central Standard Time,=20 xod@sixgirls.org writes: > .< =A0Why would I say "I was on the verge of > > fighting" unless I went on "when the so-and-so happened" or "but I got= =20 > hold > > of myself and cooled down" or some such? =A0So, saying it and not addin= g > > "when..." implicates that I did not actually fight. (Short Grice lesson= , > > details omitted to make the central point clear.) >=20 >=20 > I don't buy this last point. In telling a story, I could reasonably say "= I > was on the verge of fighting when my phone rang, but I ignored it and we > fought."> >=20 Your case is one of mine, not contrary to it. =A0The inchoative *is* correl= ated=20 with another event -- the phone ringing -- and thus, of itself, says nothin= g=20 about whether the fight occurred. =A0You had to add that it did, but you co= uld=20 equally have added that it did not. =A0Without the correlative event, howev= er,=20 the implicature is to non-occurence in past tense cases ("most of the time = a=20 cooperative interlocutor says such a thing the event referred to inchoative= ly=20 did not occur.") Present tense {pu'o} does mean that the event is likely to occur, but is no= =20 guarantee. =A0Past tense {pu'o} standing alone actually suggests that the e= vent=20 did *not* occur even though it was at the time likely to. (Strictly, it is= =20 the fact that the speaker USED {pu'o} that implies this, not the word itsel= f,=20 which entails the likelihood but nothing more about the actuality.) {pu'o} itself never entails that the event does take place or that it does= =20 not. =A0Its use in certain contexts implicates that the event does not take= =20 place, in most contexts, however, it implicates nothing beyond its=20 entailments. --part1_48.12bece29.27dfee02_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subj: Re: [lojban] I almost caught the train=20=20
Date: 3/13/2001=20=20=20
To: xod@sixgirls.org = =20
=20=20=20=20

In a message dated 3/13/2001 1:30:01 PM Central Standard Time,=20
xod@sixgirls.org writes:

.< =A0Why would I say = "I was on the verge of
> fighting" unless I went on "when the so-and-so happened" or "but I= got=20
hold
> of myself and cooled down" or some such? =A0So, saying it and not = adding
> "when..." implicates that I did not actually fight. (Short Grice l= esson,
> details omitted to make the central point clear.)

I don't buy this last point. In telling a story, I could reasonably say= "I
was on the verge of fighting when my phone rang, but I ignored it and w= e
fought.">

Your case is one of mine, not contrary to it. =A0The inchoative *is* co= rrelated=20
with another event -- the phone ringing -- and thus, of itself, says no= thing=20
about whether the fight occurred. =A0You had to add that it did, but yo= u could=20
equally have added that it did not. =A0Without the correlative event, h= owever,=20
the implicature is to non-occurence in past tense cases ("most of the t= ime a=20
cooperative interlocutor says such a thing the event referred to inchoa= tively=20
did not occur.")

<Now I assert that pu'o
should not be taken to imply anything about whether or not the event ev= er
occurs; only that it seems likely to.>

Present tense {pu'o} does mean that the event is likely to occur, but i= s no=20
guarantee. =A0Past tense {pu'o} standing alone actually suggests that t= he event=20
did *not* occur even though it was at the time likely to. (Strictly, it= is=20
the fact that the speaker USED {pu'o} that implies this, not the word i= tself,=20
which entails the likelihood but nothing more about the actuality.)
{pu'o} itself never entails that the event does take place or that it d= oes=20
not. =A0Its use in certain contexts implicates that the event does not = take=20
place, in most contexts, however, it implicates nothing beyond its=20
entailments.
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