Subject: Re: [lojban] I almost caught the train

From: Ivan A Derzhanski <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:16:21 +0200

Jorge Llambias wrote:
> la ivAn cusku di'e
> >When did the alarm clock go off? -- When the sun was about to rise.
> >That is, the alarm didn't ring long before, at or after sunrise;
> >it rang just before sunrise, and yes, of course the sun did rise.
> 
> Right, but that would most likely be "the alarm went off when
> the sun was about to rise" rather than "the sun was about to
> rise when the alarm went off".

It could be either. We have two events, an alarm and a sunrise,
and a part of the contour of the former is tied to a part of the
contour of the latter ({ZAhO1 broda calenu ZAhO2 brode}; pragmatic
considerations determine which we'll make {ZAhO1 broda} and which
{ZAhO2 brode}).

> >The trouble is that _be on the verge of_ also means `come close to'
> >(suggesting `but not ...'). (This is its usual interpretation in
> >a main clause as opposed to a subordinate one.)
> 
> Exactly. That's what we were aiming for in the first place.

Yes. But that's the English _be on the verge of_, which is not
necessarily the same thing as _be about to_ or _be going to_,
or Spanish _andar a_, or ... all sorts of things in natlangs
that differ from selma'o ZAhO in that they were not expressly
constructed as event contour markers (and presumably nothing but).

> >But if that's what you mean, you should say so,
> >and {pu'o} is not the way to say it.
> 
> What is the way to say it?

The best thing seems to be a tanru with {jibni}, as brought up
by Pycyn in his followup to me. I'm not sure how much I like it.
In a better world there might be a cmavo for this, but there isn't.

> [...] if there is nothing better, then {pu'o} will almost
> inevitably take over, just as I think {za'o} will take over
> "still", even if not exactly right, for lack of better
> alternatives.

<shrug> That may happen, but if it does, to my mind it will be
exactly the same thing as if those meanings are assigned to cmavo
chosen at random.

--Ivan