From yfnb@home.com Fri Mar 16 21:35:17 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: yfnb@home.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 17 Mar 2001 05:35:16 -0000 Received: (qmail 76165 invoked from network); 17 Mar 2001 05:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 17 Mar 2001 05:35:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com) (24.0.95.141) by mta2 with SMTP; 17 Mar 2001 05:35:16 -0000 Received: from gary.hmpt1.va.home.com ([24.4.154.57]) by femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010317053516.GATW18734.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@gary.hmpt1.va.home.com> for ; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 21:35:16 -0800 Message-ID: <004c01c0aea3$ce837d80$399a0418@hmpt1.va.home.com> To: References: <3AB17AF7.503F@erols.com> <3AB29D2C.D6E@erols.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Some questions Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 00:33:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 From: "Gary Burgess" As one who was there while the phonology of Lojban was devised, I remember discussing the [y] phoneme/grapheme. What we said at the time was that [y] could really be pronounced with any vowel that was not in the "canonical" set (i.e. not the Italian a, e, i, o, or u). I have used the ae (a as in English apple), or the Russian ery, but I recommend the German u-umlaut to pronounce the [y] on the theory that if [y] were harder for English speakers to pronounce, it would be less used. co'o mi'e garic >The (Lojban) "y" is similarly a difficult, exotic sound, very hard to > distinguish from an "a" or an "e". However, Lojban y, or something very > similar to it, is a normal phoneme of 4 of the 6 base natlangs of > Lojban--English, Russian, Chinese, and Hindi--as well as of such other > major world languages as French, German, Portuguese, Turkish, Korean, > Thai, Vietnamese, and Indonesian--and likewise of many, many "lesser" > languages like Gaelic, Welsh, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Norwegian, > Yiddish, Estonian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Albanian, Cambodian, Laotian, > etc. > Perhaps half or more of the world's languages have a vowel sound more > or less resembling Lojban "y". It is, I believe, the most commonly > occurring vowel world-wide after the "basic 5" a,e,i,o,u. > There are, of course, also languages that have fewer than 5 vowels, > often just the 3 vowels a,i,u--e.g., many Arabic dialects, most > Australian Aboriginal languages, most Eskimo (Inuit) dialects, and most > forms of Quechua. > Older-generation or recent-immigrant Israelis who originally > grew up speaking Yiddish, German, or Russian should be able to master > the Lojban "y" sound just fine! > Ancient Biblical Hebrew, I understand, had a rather more > complex vowel system than modern Israeli Hebrew. Probably la mocex. and > la daUID. or la celoMON. would have had little trouble with "y"! > :=) Regards, > T. Peter > Garden City South, LI, NY, USA > > > Avital Oliver wrote: > > > > > > a) Regarding be/bei/be'o. I don't quite understand why bei is needed. Why > > > can't it be defined that be understood as "what > > > fills the place for '_______ cu SELBRI TEXT'", and sumti are separated the > > > 'standard' way in a normal bridi > > > > > > b) After starting to teach Lojban to some friends, they all shouted out > > > that "This goddamn 'y' letter is all fucked-up. It sounds too close to > > > either a or e". I live in Israel, and Israeli speak in a european accent > > > (which I understood is the 'best' way to pronounce Lojban). 'a' is NOT > > > pronounced as in 'ball', but in a 'higher' way. It makes 'a' sound very > > > close to 'y'. 'y' is also a non-standard sound in modern Hebrew. From my > > > small experience in language construction, I always got stuck in the > > > 5-vowel barrier. It's very tempting to get to more, but you always end up > > > with some people not being able to diffrentiate. Anyone have any > > > explanations? > > > > > > c) The use of pe with tense modifiers. I do not understand the grammer > > > behind . This seems idiotic, or at least 'forcing the > > > meaning' into the phrase. Isn't a sumti supposed to some after pe? And if > > > not, what is the exact way of understanding the meaning? > > > > > > d) LOJBAN, what's with the books? =) > > > > > > I probably have more, but this is for starters. > > > > > > Bye, > > > Avital Oliver. > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > To unsubscribe, send mail to lojban-unsubscribe@onelist.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >