From rlpowell@csclub.uwaterloo.ca Sun Mar 18 14:23:59 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 18 Mar 2001 22:23:59 -0000 Received: (qmail 58739 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2001 22:23:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Mar 2001 22:23:58 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) (129.97.134.11) by mta3 with SMTP; 18 Mar 2001 23:25:02 -0000 Received: (from rlpowell@localhost) by calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id RAA08000 for lojban@onelist.com; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:30:45 -0500 (EST) Resent-Message-Id: <200103182230.RAA08000@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:39:24 -0500 To: John Cowan Subject: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. Message-ID: <20010318153923.B3953@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> References: <20010317205246.G29369@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from cowan@ccil.org on Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:30PM -0500 Resent-From: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 17:30:44 -0500 Resent-To: lojban@onelist.com X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell On Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 03:27:30PM -0500, John Cowan wrote: > Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > > > And I would say that he _knew_ that, but he was worng, and hopefully now > > knows better. In fact, the phrase 'he knows better' is in contradiction > > with your point of view on knowledge. > > Not at all. > > Consider: > > John says the earth is flat. > How absurd! He knows better than that. > > entails that John knows (whatever he says) that the Earth is not flat, which > entails, indeed, that the Earth is not flat. No, it entails that as far as we know, the Earth is not flat. Knowledge is changing all the time. > Would you say "Aristotle knew that the Earth was the center of the > universe"? Absolutely. He did know exactly that. We now 'know' that he is wrong, but maybe _we're_ wrong, hard as that may be to believe, or maybe the universe has changed. > I would instead say that Aristotle *believed* etc. but that we know it > is not. I consider belief and knowledge to be equivalent, because 'the truth' is too elusive and always changing for us to ever be _SURE_ something is true. I can _know_, with absolute certainty, that the sky is purple. I sure most people would say that my knowlede is wrong. But if you point a colorimiter at the sky, it will in fact come up purple rather than blue. Who _knows_ in that case, and who merely believes? Whichever you pick, you are making a basically arbitrary choice from the perspective of what _you_ believe to be true. Knowledge is _WAY_ too fuzzy to talk about absolute truth. > (It is not sufficient, for a belief to count as knowledge, that it be true, > but it is necessary.) Wow. I am _SO_ not with you on this. Is this philosophical point of view an inherent aspect of the lojban language itself? -Robin -- http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/ BTW, I'm male, honest. Information wants to be free. Too bad most of it is crap. --RLP