From rlpowell@csclub.uwaterloo.ca Sun Mar 18 15:32:52 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 18 Mar 2001 23:32:51 -0000 Received: (qmail 82324 invoked from network); 18 Mar 2001 23:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 18 Mar 2001 23:32:51 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) (129.97.134.11) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2001 00:33:55 -0000 Received: (from rlpowell@localhost) by calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id SAA13012 for lojban@onelist.com; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:39:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:39:39 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. Message-ID: <20010318183938.H3953@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@onelist.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from jjllambias@hotmail.com on Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 11:24:23PM +0000 X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell On Sun, Mar 18, 2001 at 11:24:23PM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > > la camgusmis cusku di'e > > > > (It is not sufficient, for a belief to count as knowledge, that it be > >true, > > > but it is necessary.) > > > >Wow. I am _SO_ not with you on this. > > > >Is this philosophical point of view an inherent aspect of the lojban > >language itself? > > I can hardly see it as a philosophical point of view. > {djuno} does not mean "x1 is absolutely certain that x2", > it means "x1 knows that x2". If John for some reason is > absolutely certain that you live in Australia, then when > asked whether he knows where Robin lives, he will answer > "yes, I know where he lives, he lives in Australia". That's > because he is convinced that "Robin lives in Australia" is > true. But I know that's not true, so I can't say "John knows > that Robin lives in Australia", I have to say "John is > absolutely certain that Robin lives in Australia, but he is > wrong, Robin does not live in Australia". > > I don't see any philosophy behind this, it doesn't even touch > the question of what is true or what can be known, it only > relates to the question of what {djuno} or "knows" mean. I'll go with that, although I'm not sure I agree. So, we have: djuno jun ju'o know x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by epistemology x4 Now, since this is, as far as I am aware, the only official definition, we need to use and english dictionary for 'knows': 1know \'no^-\ knew \'n(y):u\; known \'no^-n\; know-ing [ME knowen, fr. OE cna^-wan; akin to OHG bichna^-an to recognize, L gnoscere, noscere to come to know, Gk gigno^-skein] vt (bef. 12c) 1a (1): to perceive directly: have direct cognition of 1a (2): to have understanding of 1a (3): to recognize the nature of: DISCERN 1b (1): to recognize as being the same as something previously known 1b (2): to be acquainted or familiar with 1b (3): to have experience of 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of: be convinced or certain of 2b: to have a practical understanding of 3 archaic: to have sexual intercourse with ~ vi 1: to have knowledge 2: to be or become cognizant -- know-able \'no^--e-bel\ adj -- know-er \'no^-(-e)r\ n 2know n (1592) :KNOWLEDGE -- in the know: in possession of confidential or otherwise exclusive knowledge or information The only place where truth is discussed is 2a, where _Webster's_, for crying out loud, states that "to be aware of the truth or factuality of" _is_ _equivalent_ _to_ "be convinced or certain of". .o'onai If y'all are going to insist that djuno makes a distinction between "to be aware of the truth or factuality of" and "be convinced or certain of", you're going to need to rewrite the definiton, because that is _not_ what the current definition says. The current definition being in English, the meanings of the english words must be used. -Robin -- http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/ BTW, I'm male, honest. Information wants to be free. Too bad most of it is crap. --RLP