From xod@sixgirls.org Sun Mar 18 17:14:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: xod@shiva.sixgirls.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 19 Mar 2001 01:14:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 83872 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2001 01:14:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Mar 2001 01:14:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO shiva.sixgirls.org) (206.252.141.232) by mta2 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2001 01:14:56 -0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by shiva.sixgirls.org (8.11.0/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2J0psF09621 for ; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:51:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:51:54 -0500 (EST) To: Subject: Knowledge (was: Random lojban questions/annoyances In-Reply-To: <20010318201236.R3953@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Invent Yourself On Sun, 18 Mar 2001, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 12:56:15AM +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: > > > > la camgusmis cusku di'e > > >It would be likely to provoke the response "But Robin _doesn't_ live > > >in Australia", but that just makes the knowledge inaccurate; it's no > > >less knowledge for being wrong. > > > > Both statements would provoke that response? Would you really > > say "John knows that I live in Australia" as comfortably as > > "John is convinced that I live in Australia"? I find it hard > > to believe, but what else can I say? > > Hrmmm... > > Probably not, no. But I absolutely would say "John knows that I live in > Australia" if the intention was to enjoy the confused look on my > listener's faces as they process it (i.e. for comic effect). 8) > > Which, umm, supports your point more than mine, I suppose. 8) I believe you are a Koala bear. Steve believes you are a Koala bear. I know you are a Koala bear. Steve knows are you a Koala bear. "Belief" is a fact, regardless of the truth of the statement. "Know", however, is relative to the beliefs of the speaker. If I, like Steve, think you are a Koala Bear, I validate his belief by saying "Steve knows are you a Koala bear.". But if I don't agree with Steve, I downgrade his belief from the level of knowledge, and say "Steve believes you are a Koala bear.". Hence, the English "know" reflects the beliefs of every speaker that transmits the fact. Do we want this rather strange, intransitive (?) behavior in Lojban too? ----- We do not like And if a cat those Rs and Ds, needed a hat? Who can't resist Free enterprise more subsidies. is there for that!