From jjllambias@hotmail.com Sun Mar 18 19:49:24 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 19 Mar 2001 03:49:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 12428 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2001 03:49:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Mar 2001 03:49:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.240.177) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2001 03:49:24 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:49:24 -0800 Received: from 200.41.210.17 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:49:23 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.210.17] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Knowledge (was: Random lojban questions/annoyances Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:49:23 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2001 03:49:24.0032 (UTC) FILETIME=[966D1C00:01C0B027] From: "Jorge Llambias" la camgusmis cusku di'e >I'm not answering that question until and unless someone tells me how >having djuno require truth would work in practice. Pretty much like English "knows" works in practice. {djuno} does not "require" truth any more than {jetnu} does. >Given: > >la stiv djuno le du'u do cribe > >and assuming you are not a (Koala) bear, how do you correct the speaker, >since the speaker has, by definition, stated a truth, since djuno can >only talk about truths! How do you correct a speaker who states {jetnu fa le du'u do cribe}? It is the same situation. Neither the use of {djuno} nor of {jetnu} entails that the speaker is stating a truth. >And what if you hear Steve say: > >mi djuno le du'u do cribe > >how do you correct him? i do srera i mi na cribe >And once you've done so, since djuno only talks about facts, does that >mean that Steve can no longer say > >mi pu djuno le du'u do cribe He can't truthfully say that if he accepts my correction and now knows that I'm not a bear. He has to accept that his previous statement was false, no big deal. That does not mean he was being dishonest, it only means he was wrong. >And if he can't say that, that would be rather disturbing, since it's >certainly _true_ that he used to know that; he stated his knowledge >earlier! No, what is true is that he thought he knew that. He stated what he though his knowledge was. He can now say: mi pu jinvi le du'u do djuno le du'u do cribe Very much like in English: "I thought you were a bear" and not "I knew you were a bear". co'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.