From cowan@ccil.org Mon Mar 19 00:09:53 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: cowan@mercury.ccil.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 19 Mar 2001 08:09:52 -0000 Received: (qmail 77152 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2001 08:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Mar 2001 08:09:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mercury.ccil.org) (192.190.237.100) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2001 08:09:52 -0000 Received: from cowan by mercury.ccil.org with local (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 14eukG-0000q9-00; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:10:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [lojban] Knowledge (was: Random lojban questions/annoyances In-Reply-To: <20010318223903.V3953@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> from Robin Lee Powell at "Mar 18, 2001 10:39:04 pm" To: Robin Lee Powell Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 03:10:28 -0500 (EST) Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL66 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-eGroups-From: John Cowan From: John Cowan Robin Lee Powell scripsit: > la stiv djuno le du'u do cribe > > and assuming you are not a (Koala) bear, how do you correct the speaker, > since the speaker has, by definition, stated a truth, since djuno can > only talk about truths! No, no, you are mixing up truth of the outer bridi with truth of the inner one. If you are not a bear, then Steve is wrong and the speaker is wrong too. Djuno claims necessarily talk about truths only if they themselves are true! > And what if you hear Steve say: > > mi djuno le du'u do cribe > > how do you correct him? You can correct him by saying "I am not a bear", which means that his statement cannot be true. If you are not a bear, Steve does *not* know that you are a bear. You can also correct him by saying "You do not know that", although pragmatically that might mean that you are a bear, but that Steve's justification for believing it is insufficient: A: Miles is a murderer, because he was the last to see Etienne alive. B: You don't know that Miles is a murderer. Miles could still be a murderer in this case, it's just that A's evidence is insufficient. > And once you've done so, since djuno only talks about facts, does that > mean that Steve can no longer say > > mi pu djuno le du'u do cribe > > And if he can't say that, that would be rather disturbing, since it's > certainly _true_ that he used to know that; he stated his knowledge > earlier! Steve said that he knew, but he was incorrect to so state. He did not know it before, and he does not know it now either. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org One art/there is/no less/no more/All things/to do/with sparks/galore --Douglas Hofstadter