From graywyvern@hotmail.com Mon Mar 19 11:46:21 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: graywyvern@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 19 Mar 2001 19:46:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 44054 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2001 19:46:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 19 Mar 2001 19:46:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.237.141) by mta3 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2001 20:47:24 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 11:46:19 -0800 Received: from 209.176.48.45 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:46:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.176.48.45] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: re: djuno [was: random lojban annoyance Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 19:46:19 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Mar 2001 19:46:19.0421 (UTC) FILETIME=[44AA34D0:01C0B0AD] From: "michael helsem" Let's keep LA .UEBSTR. out of this... What's chiefly distinguished in Lojban is the amount of sumti places that semantically similar words use. Off the top of my head i can think of five (plus JIJNU if you accept intuitive knowledge). One with two places: BIRTI- x1 is certain/sure/positive/convinced that x2 is true. (Meant to contrast with SENPI, i'm sure.) Two with three places: KRICI- x1 believes [without evidence] that belief/creed x2 (du'u) is true/assumed about subject x3. SRUMA- x1 assumes/supposes that x2 (du'u) is true about subject x3. (I assume LE SRUMA would give reasons if asked--but so would most LE KRICI...) And two with four places: DJUNO- x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by epistemology x4. JINVI- x1 thinks/opines x2 [opinion] (du'u) is true about subject/issue x3 on grounds x4. Using these without specifying x4, could mean that the usual basis of knowledge is meant (TV or public schools). But unless i'm sloppily translating from GLICYKAI thinking, i would rather use one of the three-place gismu if it's not going to be an issue. On the other hand, if i'm talking about someone i think is mistaken, then it behooves me to include in the x4 my opinion of what caused them to go wrong...even if it's just LEKA DRATA MI. They all work with evidentials & each other & JETNU & JITFA & there's really no need to delve into the polysemies of LA GLIBAN to say all we want about our own or other people's knowledge &/or thoughts. Personally i have no problem if one LOBYPRE wants to distinguish DJUNO & JETNU DJUNO, & another DJUNO & SIMLU DJUNO (as for myself, a lot i think would be best termed MILXE DJUNO--or even ZASNI DJUNO)... (p.s, STILL can't get this to work: http://www.animal.helsinki.fi/lojban/gismu-search-form.html --!!) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com