From rlpowell@csclub.uwaterloo.ca Mon Mar 19 14:08:23 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: rlpowell@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 19 Mar 2001 22:08:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 19391 invoked from network); 19 Mar 2001 22:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 19 Mar 2001 22:08:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca) (129.97.134.11) by mta1 with SMTP; 19 Mar 2001 22:08:18 -0000 Received: (from rlpowell@localhost) by calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id RAA09332 for lojban@onelist.com; Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:14:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:14:59 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Knowledge (was: Random lojban questions/annoyances Message-ID: <20010319171458.V3953@calum.csclub.uwaterloo.ca> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@onelist.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from xod@sixgirls.org on Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:07:10PM -0500 X-eGroups-From: Robin Lee Powell From: Robin Lee Powell On Mon, Mar 19, 2001 at 04:07:10PM -0500, Invent Yourself wrote: > On Mon, 19 Mar 2001, Robert J. Chassell wrote: > > > The link, I believe, between Jorge and Robin, is that the default djuno x4 > > is the narrator's belief system. > > > > No, I think the default djuno x4 should be the belief system > > appropriate to the utterance. But understanding does get complicated; > > but then, understanding always is complicated. > > > > The advantage of Lojban in this case is that it is clearly difficult > > to determine which djuno x4 a narrator is using unless he or she > > specifies it. On the other hand, it is less obvious to English > > speakers that epistemologies vary. Certainly, I myself tend to > > presume that my interlocutors share my epistemology, and I am often > > wrong. > > > In English, x4 is fixed as the narrator's belief system. I can't say "A > knows B" unless I believe it too. Yes. You. Can. Just because _you_ don't use English this way doesn't mean that it is invalid. > I suspect Jorge + John use the narrator as default x4, since they seem to > see djuno as similar in this sense as "know". And I suspect Robin would > put it as the belief system of the person being discussed (if there is > such a person). A convention on the meaning of djuno fo zo'e would be > nice! Yes, I agree. I think I'll just use 'mi djuno fo le du'u noda jetnu' from now on, as I don't really believe in the concept of objective 'fact's. zo'o -Robin -- http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/ BTW, I'm male, honest. Information wants to be free. Too bad most of it is crap. --RLP