From lojbab@lojban.org Wed Mar 21 08:17:38 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 21 Mar 2001 16:17:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 51627 invoked from network); 21 Mar 2001 16:17:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 21 Mar 2001 16:17:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-3.cais.net) (205.252.14.73) by mta3 with SMTP; 21 Mar 2001 17:18:41 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org (dynamic199.cl8.cais.net [205.177.20.199]) by stmpy-3.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f2LGHZa71090 for ; Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:17:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010321111606.00c17710@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:21:35 -0500 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 03:46 PM 03/21/2001 +0000, Jorge Llambias wrote: >la lojbab cusku di'e > >Simplest case that comes to mind: experimental measurements of the speed of > >light or other fundamental constants. ko'a does the experiment and gets > >value c1. > >(An experimental value with no errors?) > >What does ko'a know "experimentally"? > >You want to claim: >"ko'a djuno fo " >"naku jetnu fe " > >Are those your two claims? > > >ko'e repeats the experiment and gets value c2. The actual value > >of c may be slightly different from either of these values, of course. In > >this sense, the knowledge of the values c1 and c2 are both dependent on the > >observers, yet neither of them is true in the absence of an observer place. > >You want to claim that each observer knows that their value is >right and at the same time you claim that it is not true that either >of the values is right? Not quite. Take the word "right" out of there. In a philosophy that denies objective reality, there is no "right". Each observer knows a certain value measures the speed of light based on an experiment. By moving to an observer-independent frame, we can say that at least one of the two values is not the speed of light as measured by the experiment once observer dependencies are removed. >Probably the same would be true of much transient subjective sensory > >information. > >I don't see how it could be true. It would be true to ko'a by ko'a's senses. But ko'a's senses are not generally considered to be a valid epistemology for observer independent truth (jetnu) lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org