From pycyn@aol.com Thu Mar 22 09:42:35 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 22 Mar 2001 17:42:35 -0000 Received: (qmail 3124 invoked from network); 22 Mar 2001 17:41:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 22 Mar 2001 17:41:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m08.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.163) by mta2 with SMTP; 22 Mar 2001 17:41:42 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.13.132513a0 (3855) for ; Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:41:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13.132513a0.27eb934e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 12:41:34 EST Subject: Lojbab's metaphysical neutrality. To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_13.132513a0.27eb934e_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10501 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_13.132513a0.27eb934e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good exposition and nobly motivated. But I'm keepin' m'seegar still. {djuno} can't, of course, do the work of {jetnu}, since it involves in addition belief and evidence, neither of which apply to {jetnu}. In every epistemology worthy of the (misapplied) name, there are truths that no one even believes, let alone knows, and ones that they believe but lack evidence for to know. But in the case of knowing, the truth of the claim must be in the same epistemology as the knowing, for it is the truth (and the evidence, of course) that add the epistemology to the bare belief. And so, if the epistemology in which x knows that p has implicit or explicit reference to x, so must the corresponding truth, even if x is not mentioned in a separate place -- he is then mentioned or implicated in the epistemology place. In short, x can't know that p in e and p be false in e. BTW hearsay evidence is the report of someone else's claims, that someone else not being available, and not one's report of one's own experiences, which are perfectly admissable and indeed primary evidence (what else could be?). The sequences {fatci jetnu} and {krici jinvi djuno} are very nice and do much of the work whicvh led to them, but they can't be pushed too far (actually, I suppose there should be an observer form parallel to {jinvi}, with the two threads reuniting in {djuno}). It is, however, useful to have them brought out into the open (again?) to remind us of what the facilities of Lojban are --part1_13.132513a0.27eb934e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good exposition and nobly motivated.  But I'm keepin' m'seegar still.
{djuno} can't, of course, do the work of {jetnu}, since it involves in
addition belief and evidence, neither of which apply to {jetnu}.  In every
epistemology worthy of the (misapplied) name, there are truths that no one
even believes, let alone knows, and ones that they believe but lack evidence
for to know.  But in the case of knowing, the truth of the claim must be in
the same epistemology as the knowing, for it is the truth (and the evidence,
of course) that add the epistemology to the bare belief.  And so, if the
epistemology in which x knows that p has implicit or explicit reference to x,
so must the corresponding truth, even if x is not mentioned in a separate
place -- he is then mentioned or implicated in the epistemology place.  In
short, x can't know that p in e and p be false in e.
BTW hearsay evidence is the report of someone else's claims, that someone
else not being available, and not one's report of one's own experiences,
which are perfectly admissable and indeed primary evidence (what else could
be?).

The sequences {fatci jetnu} and {krici jinvi djuno} are very nice and do much
of the work whicvh led to them, but they can't be pushed too far (actually, I
suppose there should be an observer form parallel to {jinvi}, with the two
threads reuniting in {djuno}).
It is, however, useful to have them brought out into the open (again?) to
remind us of what the facilities of Lojban are --part1_13.132513a0.27eb934e_boundary--