From pycyn@aol.com Sat Mar 24 07:31:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 24 Mar 2001 15:31:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 2920 invoked from network); 24 Mar 2001 15:31:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 24 Mar 2001 15:31:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta3 with SMTP; 24 Mar 2001 16:32:32 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id r.6e.8d68b67 (3980) for ; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 10:31:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6e.8d68b67.27ee17c4@aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 10:31:16 EST Subject: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_6e.8d68b67.27ee17c4_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10501 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_6e.8d68b67.27ee17c4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/24/2001 5:45:04 AM Central Standard Time,=20 lojbab@lojban.org writes: > >So we have to allow for non-female sisters too? Doesn't mensi > >always require some form of fetsi? >=20 > Probably, but it might be arguable. >=20 > If I had a brother who underwent a sex-change operation, would he be my=20 > sister or my brother? Genetically he is still male, but genitally he is= =20 > female. >=20 > Now you can say this is "some form of fetsi" But the djuno case in theor= y=20 > could be some kind of jetnu, since you CAN add some kind of observer plac= e=20 > to jetnu. >=20 > But in any case I am wary about asserting absolute definitions, especiall= y=20 > by prescription. >=20 > , we can't say that there will=20 > never be someone who can think of a use for mensi that does not involve=20 > fetsi=A0 (imagine when we meet an alien species which might be=20 > asexual.=A0 Someone's father legally adopts a child of this species into = the=20 > family.=A0 Would it be wrong to call that new family member "mensi"? >=20 I seem to recall that we went round on this a while ago with respect to one= =20 or two types of hermaphrodites as well as transgendered and transexual=20 people. I don't remember what all came of that discussion, but it is=20 reasonable to assume that we distinguished at least 1) genotype (is yo is or is you ain't a Y-by?, maybe some stuff about stero= id=20 responses) 2) phenotype (+ natural/artificial, permanent or prosthetic) 3) stereotype (clothes, behavior, occupation) 4) {gletu}-preference All of that is, of course, for humans and related critters. I don't think = we=20 got into other possibilities, but, since, for the critters we dealt with,=20 female is the default in both geno and pheno, perhaps we could let {fetsi}= =20 expand in that way to the new realms (assuming that, whatever, the structur= e=20 of the genetic code and polymorphism for the Its, the notion of a default=20 makes sense, as it surely does for asexuals). As for {mensi} we already ha= ve=20 enough non-gender -(or is it -sex) -specific uses of "sister" in English to= =20 start a a range of usage (mainly tied up with 4, admittedly).=20=20 But none of that seems to me to affect "know" nor {djuno} in any meaningful= =20 way. --part1_6e.8d68b67.27ee17c4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 3/24/2001 5:45:04 AM Central Standard Time,=20
lojbab@lojban.org writes:


>So we have to allow f= or non-female sisters too? Doesn't mensi
>always require some form of fetsi?

Probably, but it might be arguable.

If I had a brother who underwent a sex-change operation, would he be my= =20
sister or my brother?  Genetically he is still male, but genitally= he is=20
female.

Now you can say this is "some form of fetsi"  But the djuno case i= n theory=20
could be some kind of jetnu, since you CAN add some kind of observer pl= ace=20
to jetnu.

But in any case I am wary about asserting absolute definitions, especia= lly=20
by prescription.

, we can't say that there will=20
never be someone who can think of a use for mensi that does not involve= =20
fetsi=A0 (imagine when we meet an alien species which might be=20
asexual.=A0 Someone's father legally adopts a child of this species int= o the=20
family.=A0 Would it be wrong to call that new family member "mensi"?


I seem to recall that we went round on this a while ago with respect to= one=20
or two types of hermaphrodites as well as transgendered and transexual= =20
people.  I don't remember what all came of that discussion, but it= is=20
reasonable to assume that
we distinguished at least
1) genotype (is yo is or is you ain't a Y-by?, maybe some stuff about s= teroid=20
responses)
2) phenotype (+ natural/artificial, permanent or prosthetic)
3) stereotype  (clothes, behavior, occupation)
4) {gletu}-preference
All of that is, of course, for humans and related critters.  I don= 't think we=20
got into other possibilities, but, since, for the critters we dealt wit= h,=20
female is the default in both geno and pheno, perhaps we could let {fet= si}=20
expand in that way to the new realms (assuming that, whatever, the stru= cture=20
of the genetic code and polymorphism for the Its, the notion of a defau= lt=20
makes sense, as it surely does for asexuals).  As for {mensi} we a= lready have=20
enough non-gender -(or is it -sex) -specific uses of "sister" in Englis= h to=20
start a a range of usage (mainly tied up with 4, admittedly).  
But none of that seems to me to affect "know" nor {djuno} in any meanin= gful=20
way. --part1_6e.8d68b67.27ee17c4_boundary--