From bob@RATTLESNAKE.COM Sat Mar 24 17:25:14 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: bob@rattlesnake.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 25 Mar 2001 01:25:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 69142 invoked from network); 25 Mar 2001 01:25:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 25 Mar 2001 01:25:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO megalith.rattlesnake.com) (140.186.114.245) by mta3 with SMTP; 25 Mar 2001 02:26:16 -0000 Received: by rattlesnake.com via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.111) for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:25:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 20:25:11 -0500 (EST) To: a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com Cc: lojban@yahoogroups.com In-reply-to: Subject: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. Reply-to: bob@rattlesnake.com References: X-eGroups-From: "Robert J. Chassell" From: "Robert J. Chassell" Lojbab: > The current definition is NOT a single word, and the whole must > be used to get the meaning. There MUST be an epistemology, ... Could you explain what an epistemology is, ... You are being confused by the English. An English dictionary writer picks the word `know', but the lojban is `djuno' and the word *requires* that you incorporate an epistemology in the meaning. The epistemology may be implicit or explicit, but it is there. If the English word `know' is misleading, choose another that fits the lojban better for your understanding. Here is one of the ways that Lojbab defined the word. Replace the word `know' with something else that works as well or better. I suggest `apprehend' as a possibility. Also, I suggest the phrase `considers X2 highly suggestive about X3 by epistemology x4', where the phrase `highly suggestive' is one of the phrases used by David McAllister as one of his metric standards for `certainty factors' for use in an `expert system' (a type of computer program). See http://www.rattlesnake.com/notions/certainty-factors.html The main point is that lojban words are not like English words; lojban words incorporate different constraints and references. (This, by the way, is why I think that any learing program that uses `key words' is fundamentally flawed. But, of course, the disadvantage of following my belief is that you end up having to do more work. This why people like me don't have the time to study lojban vocabulary, even though good programs exist, such as Emacs Flashcard mode. This is why I hardly ever write to this list and still don't know contemporary lojban.) Here is the definition for `djuno' as it is defined in the standard gimu list; but try substuting `apprehend' and the longer McAllister phrase for the word `know'. And please think of some better word than `apprehend'; I don't like it. * know how to (not necessarily with capability), x1 knows fact(s) x2 (du'u) about subject x3 by epistemology x4 /:/ [words usable for epistemology typically have a du'u place; know how to - implying knowledge of method but not necessarily having the ability to practice (= tadjyju'o)] (cf. know how to/familiar with: se slabu, na'e cnino, na'e fange; also cf. cmavo list du'o, cilre, certu, facki, jijnu, jimpe, senpi, smadi, kakne, birti, mipri, morji, saske) /=/ djuno (jun ju'o) -- Robert J. Chassell bob@rattlesnake.com Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com