From arosta@uclan.ac.uk Mon Mar 26 07:59:46 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: arosta@uclan.ac.uk X-Apparently-To: Lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_0_4); 26 Mar 2001 15:59:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 94787 invoked from network); 26 Mar 2001 15:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Mar 2001 15:59:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO com1.uclan.ac.uk) (193.61.255.3) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Mar 2001 15:59:44 -0000 Received: from gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk by com1.uclan.ac.uk with SMTP (Mailer); Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:42:17 +0100 Received: from DI1-Message_Server by gwise-gw1.uclan.ac.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 26 Mar 2001 17:00:34 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.2 Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:59:57 +0100 To: Lojban Subject: Fwd: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From: And Rosta Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:41:34 +0100 From: And Rosta To: "Robert J. Chassell" Subject: Re: [lojban] Random lojban questions/annoyances. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bob C: # I'm not being confused by 'know'. I want to know what a ve djuno is, # and also to know how "X djuno P fo Y" and "X djuno not-P fo Z" could # be true. # #Its how you come to know or believe or apprehend or consider true #something. OK. Understood. #For example: # # I came to know that the butler was innocent because he told me so. # # I came to know that the butler was guilty because he held a # smoking gun in his hand. We should avoid examples where the knower is I/me, because this=20 confuses matters. #It goes without saying that it takes judgement to decide what is known #and what is not. Most of the time the judgement is made without #conscious effort or thought, but sometimes it is conscious and #difficult. OK. If this is correct, then the x4 place of DJUNO is irrelevant to the issue of whether x2 of DJUNO is true. This would simiplify the debate (which, thanks be to the mercy of god, has abated rather).. --And.