Subject: Re: munje fatci [was: Re: [lojban] Random lojban

From: "michael helsem" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 20:59:27

>From: [email-masked]
li'o
>I am not sure what the stages of observing are,
>however, even under analysis.

What i had in mind was a series i call the "four barriers":
1. noise 2. revulsion 3. fascination 4. understanding. To notice
something at all is to "cross the noise threshold"; to be able to
perceive it accurately one must overcome its strangeness; then
to begin to understand it truly one must stop identifying with
it emotionally; finally (& this transcends science) one lets go
of even that understanding, because other understandings are
or will be also possible.

This was not reached by unfurling words, though it takes a few
to unpack the insight.

li'o
>Since intuition just above introduced stages into observation by you, it 
>seems to constrast with non-dividing sensing and so,
>possibly, with not-so-attentive consciousness. That, if correct, would 
>make one equivalent true of all consciousness of reality,
>while the other equivalent, non-dividing sensing, is not always true.

Those stages are developmental & can (but don't necessary) follow
with increasing duration of familiarity... It is possible to
conceive of an epistemology for each level, but i think what
we mean by VE DJUNO belongs to #3 & #4. Before that, stimuli
register more as "present/not-present" than as differentiated
"things". I am afraid that for me JIJNU means Intuition only
in the Jungian sense (one of the four fundamental modalities)
& not as any of the several English uses of the word (most of
which are better translated as CINMO). But i then need to introduce
a new set of terms--perhaps TSALI JUNDI for "concentration" &
RUBLE JUNDI for the typical scattered awareness that produces
hardly any memory trace. Then continuing NU TSALI JUNDI leads
to the next state, NU STODI JIJNU "meditation", in which true
insights occur. Even then, it is no more complete than that the
sparkle of the sun in one droplet of a waterfall (which does
contain spectrally all the colors) subsumes all the paths of
light in all the others; finite beings can not comprehend the
totality. It is said (e.g. by Patanjali) that continued
perseverence in the practice of NU STODI JIJNU will lead to a
state which might be referred to as MU'E MUNJE FATCI SANJI
("samadhi"), but insofar as to all observers the person involved
seems to be unaware of their surroundings, & then afterwards
remembers nothing, it might be wiser to consider this simply
TO'E DJUNO & remain in the tradition of parables.

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