From graywyvern@hotmail.com Mon Apr 02 10:01:33 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: graywyvern@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_0_1); 2 Apr 2001 17:01:32 -0000 Received: (qmail 70138 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2001 17:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 2 Apr 2001 17:01:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.237.222) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Apr 2001 17:01:30 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:01:29 -0700 Received: from 209.176.48.18 by lw7fd.law7.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:01:29 GMT X-Originating-IP: [209.176.48.18] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: srana le'i sucta cmavo Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 17:01:29 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2001 17:01:29.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[8FA752D0:01C0BB96] From: "michael helsem" There is i think a fruitful tension in Loban between the general & the specific. On the one hand it can be extremely vague with words like ZUKTE, FASNU & GASNU (writing this way resembles Latin, & seems most lojbanic but little explored because a lot of us come to it with a highly specific language like English in our heads); on the other hand almost any degree of subtlety of distinction can be made if you only use enough words... I agree with Jorge that NU can be considered the standard in almost any conversational usage without loss of meaning. "Don't be specific unless you are making the distinction" might become the JBOJBE's watchword someday. I see two reasons to keep the other cmavo. First, the possibility of conveying event-contours with ZA'I, MU'E & ZU'O. (There are other ways of course, but these are most succinct.) To me it is important sometimes to specify MU'E & not NU because in a narrative that point will become a reference in the otherwise- not-closely differentiated continuum of lojbanic temporal narrative. Also, (correct me if i'm wrong) aren't these really just sort of contractions, KA BRODA for CKAJI LE BRODA, NU BRODA for FASNU LE BRODA, SI'O BRODA for SIDBO LE BRODA, PU'U BRODA for PRUCE LE BRODA, LI'I BRODA for LIFRI LE BRODA, NI BRODA for KLANI LE BRODA, & SU'U BRODA for SUCTA LE BRODA? (The others are less obvious: i agree with a prior poster that JEI BRODA equals DU'U XUKAU BRODA; DU'U BRODA could be XUSRA or JUFRA LE BRODA; ZU'O BRODA & MU'E BRODA probably DIKNI ZUKTE LE BRODA & BRODE CEI FASNU MOKCA. I'm not sure ZA'I BRODA fits into RANJI LE BRODA so well...) Anyway, my point being that when these distinctions need to be made, the cmavo should be available & mean things as different as SIDBO & LIFRI, KLANI & CKAJI, RANJI & MOKCA. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com