From jjllambias@hotmail.com Mon Apr 02 13:07:27 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_0_1); 2 Apr 2001 20:07:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 73217 invoked from network); 2 Apr 2001 20:07:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 2 Apr 2001 20:07:26 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.244) by mta1 with SMTP; 2 Apr 2001 20:07:25 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:07:25 -0700 Received: from 200.41.210.24 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:07:25 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.210.24] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] srana le'i sucta cmavo Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:07:25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2001 20:07:25.0470 (UTC) FILETIME=[891273E0:01C0BBB0] From: "Jorge Llambias" la maikl cusku di'e >I see two reasons to keep the other cmavo. First, the possibility >of conveying event-contours with ZA'I, MU'E & ZU'O. (There are >other ways of course, but these are most succinct.) Could you be more specific as to how they convey contours? Do you mean something like this: le mu'e broda = le nu co'a broda / le nu mo'u broda (a la pc) le mu'e broda = le nu co'i broda le zu'o broda =? le nu ca'o broda le za'i broda =? They are barely more succint, and it is not even clear to me that they are equivalent. >To me it >is important sometimes to specify MU'E & not NU because in a >narrative that point will become a reference in the otherwise- >not-closely differentiated continuum of lojbanic temporal >narrative. But there is nothing in {nu} to prevent it from being a reference, even a point reference. >Also, (correct me if i'm wrong) aren't these really just sort >of contractions, Yes, and it is useful to work out what they are contractions of. >KA BRODA for CKAJI LE BRODA, Well, {ka ce'u broda} would be something like {selkai lo'e broda}. >NU BRODA for FASNU LE BRODA, {fasnu} doesn't have an x2, and {le broda}, the x1 of broda, is not particularly singled out by {nu broda}. It's more like: nu broda = fasnu co se pagbu le broda e le se broda e le te broda e le ve broda e le xe broda >SI'O BRODA for SIDBO LE BRODA, Again, {le broda} should not be singled out, but I don't really know what {si'o} means. Is {si'o broda} maybe something like {sidbo le nu broda}? It would be horribly vague. >PU'U BRODA for PRUCE LE BRODA, x2 of pruce is for the inputs of the process. I would go with the fasnu model: pu'u broda = pruce co se pagbu le broda e le se broda e le te broda e le ve broda e le xe broda or just: pu'u broda = pruce co nu broda >LI'I BRODA for LIFRI LE BRODA, li'i broda = selfri co nu broda >NI BRODA for KLANI LE BRODA, {ni} is complicated. The x2 of klani is a number, so in general it has nothing to do with {le broda}, which in any case again should not be singled out. I'm not even certain whether {ni} is supposed to be a klani or a se klani. The way it is used, it usually corresponds to an indirect question (how much, to what extent): le pixra cu cenba le ni ce'u blanu which could be rewritten as: le pixra cu cenba le ka ce'u blanu sela'u makau Something very similar happens with {jei}. One thing is the definition and another the actual usage. >& SU'U BRODA for SUCTA LE BRODA? As with {si'o}, I don't really know what {su'u} is supposed to mean. {sucta co nu broda} is again horribly vague. The only example I remember again falls into an indirect question: See how they run! >(The others are less obvious: >i agree with a prior poster that JEI BRODA equals DU'U XUKAU >BRODA; Right, that is what usage has determined so far. >DU'U BRODA could be XUSRA or JUFRA LE BRODA; {sedu'u broda} could be {jufra le nu broda} (not {le broda}!) {du'u broda} could be {selxu'a co nu broda}. >ZU'O BRODA >& MU'E BRODA probably DIKNI ZUKTE LE BRODA & BRODE CEI FASNU >MOKCA. zu'o broda =? selzu'e co nu broda mu'e broda = mokca co nu broda Do activities always have an actor and a goal? >I'm not sure ZA'I BRODA fits into RANJI LE BRODA so well...) I can't think of anything better, but it would be {ranji co nu broda}. >Anyway, my point being that when these distinctions need to be >made, the cmavo should be available & mean things as different as >SIDBO & LIFRI, KLANI & CKAJI, RANJI & MOKCA. I'm not convinced that using cmavo is the way to go for this, but in any case, trying to define the meaning of cmavo in Lojban rather than in English is very helpful and necessary. co'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.