From jjllambias@hotmail.com Tue Apr 03 17:01:25 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@onelist.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_1); 4 Apr 2001 00:01:24 -0000 Received: (qmail 62997 invoked from network); 4 Apr 2001 00:00:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 4 Apr 2001 00:00:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.164) by mta3 with SMTP; 4 Apr 2001 01:01:04 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 3 Apr 2001 16:54:55 -0700 Received: from 200.41.210.4 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 03 Apr 2001 23:54:54 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.210.4] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Random lojban questions/annoyances. Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 23:54:54 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Apr 2001 23:54:55.0128 (UTC) FILETIME=[7B50B980:01C0BC99] From: "Jorge Llambias" la Avital cusku di'e >There is all the difference between > >1. mi nelci lenu mi klama >2. mi nelci ledu'u mi klama >3. mi nelci leka mi klama >4. mi nelci leni mi klama > >and others. (The first two are a bit similar, but the third and fourth >are different than them all). The case of {ni} is special because it contains a hidden indirect question, but let's consider the other three: >1. I like walking >2. I like the fact that I am walking In English, the difference between these two is that the first refers to events of walking in general while the second refers to a particular event that is happening now, so the second would best be translated as {mi nelci le nu mi ca ca'a cadzu}. ({klama} is not necessarily walking.) Liking a du'u, in the sense that objects or events are liked, is a strange notion as far as I can tell. "The fact that" here is just an English idiom to indicate that the event actually happens, it should not be translated as {du'u}. >3. I like my walkingness {le ka mi klama} is not "my walkingness" nor "my goingness". It is the property of being gone to by me, {le ka mi klama ce'u}. A property ka always has an open slot, for the things of which it is a property. {le ka ce'u klama} is the property of being a goer, {le ka klama ce'u} the property of being gone to, {le ka klama fi ce'u} the property of being the origin of a going, and so on. Liking these things is again not something that people usually do. You may like goers, or you may like being a goer yourself, (le nu do klama) but what does it mean to like the property which all goers share? co'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.