From graywyvern@hotmail.com Wed Apr 04 16:29:37 2001
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Subject: Re: [lojban] srana le'i sucta cmavo
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 23:29:36 
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From: "michael helsem" <graywyvern@hotmail.com>

>From: "Jorge Llambias" <jjllambias@hotmail.com>
li'o
> >the possibility
> >of conveying event-contours with ZA'I, MU'E & ZU'O. (There are
> >other ways of course, but these are most succinct.)
>
>Could you be more specific as to how they convey contours?

See part 3 of chapter 11. Also somewhere on the Lojban home
page is a short paper on event contours with reference to
graphically representing them (in my mind--perhaps this is too
esoteric--the ADSR, Attack (Decay) Sustain & whatever R was, in
music theory: is just that sort of graph).

li'o
>But there is nothing in {nu} to prevent it from being a reference,
>even a point reference.
>

No, but MU'E is necessarily an event of short duration; & that
is the distinction which is being emphasized by my using it
rather than another abstractor.

li'o
> >NU BRODA for FASNU LE BRODA,
>
>{fasnu} doesn't have an x2

okay then, FASNU CO BRODA.

li'o
>I don't really
>know what {si'o} means. Is {si'o broda} maybe something like
>{sidbo le nu broda}? It would be horribly vague.

I imagine this one would find use among philosophers, where SI'O
BRODA actually stands for a whole line of argumentation, rather
than simply the abstraction of a simple gismu. Certainly when we
say in English "the idea of Freedom" we aren't referring to the
dictionary definition.

> >PU'U BRODA for PRUCE LE BRODA,
>
li'o
>pu'u broda = pruce co nu broda
>

i don't see why not just PRUCE CO BRODA

li'o
> >NI BRODA for KLANI LE BRODA,
>
>{ni} is complicated. The x2 of klani is a number, so in general
>it has nothing to do with {le broda},
li'o

then KLANI CO BRODA

> >& SU'U BRODA for SUCTA LE BRODA?
>
>As with {si'o}, I don't really know what {su'u} is supposed
>to mean. {sucta co nu broda} is again horribly vague.
li'o

well, the sort of discussion we're having now, is just
where the ability to say SU'U BRODA, & mean NU or KA or any
of the others, would be useful.

li'o
>Do activities always have an actor and a goal?

ZI'O ZUKTE & ZUKTE FIZI'O are possible to say &, perhaps, to
conceive.

li'o
>I'm not convinced that using cmavo is the way to go for this,
>but in any case, trying to define the meaning of cmavo in Lojban
>rather than in English is very helpful and necessary.
>

yes; i hate to say it but someday we'll have to write the lojban dictionary 
in lojban!
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