From pycyn@aol.com Fri Apr 13 13:33:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 13 Apr 2001 20:33:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 31589 invoked from network); 13 Apr 2001 20:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 13 Apr 2001 20:33:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-r19.mx.aol.com) (152.163.225.73) by mta2 with SMTP; 13 Apr 2001 20:33:27 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-r19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id r.c3.fb06185 (4319) for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 16:32:38 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Beginner phrases To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_c3.fb06185.2808bc66_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_c3.fb06185.2808bc66_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 4/13/2001 2:05:18 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 jay.kominek@colorado.edu writes: > > ko gasnu vorme ganlo > > shut the door >=20 > ko te ganlo le vorme >=20 The list is ambiguous, but I am pretty sure that in x1 (portal/passage/entrance-way) is closed/shut/not open, preventing=20 passage/access to x2 by x3 x3 is prevented passage or access, not the agent of the closed/shut/not=20 open-ness. In a message dated 4/13/2001 1:20:52 PM Central Daylight Time,=20 david@shockey.com writes: The big problem is the distinction between sumti and selbri (nouns and verb= s,=20 as we would say in English): you don't make it, so you get long complex=20 selbri (verb phrases) with no objects >=20 >=20 > pe=E2=80=99u ko klama vi >=20 OK, maybe {ko vi klama} =C2=A0is more lojbanic, but saying that can start a= row. >=20 > pe=E2=80=99u ko dunda cukta mi >=20 This says "Please be a giving book about me" =C2=A0You want {pe'u ko dunda = le=20 cukta mi}, if you have a patiuclar book in mind or {pe'u ko dunda lo cukta= =20 mi} for a book, whatever comes to hand. > ko jinru >=20 OK (we will not at this point get fussy about what the child is to immerse= =20 himself in and what he is to do in it, though given a six-year-old's=20 jesuitical strain, {ko lumci vo'a} might be safer) > pe=E2=80=99u ko jgari mi >=20 On the same ground, watch out for clutching and choking. >=20 > ko gasnu vorme ganlo=20 >=20 This gets complex. {gasnu} object is an event description , {lenu...}, in=20 this case that the door (a specific one, I assume) is closed: le vorme cu=20 ganlo ({cu} to mark the beginning of the selbri -- or the end of the sumti)= .=20 =C2=A0So the whole comes to=20 {ko gasnu lenu le vorme cu ganlo} =C2=A0(The original said --whatever it ma= y mean=20 -- "Be agent doorly shut") >=20 > xu skule pluka >=20 xu le ckule cu pluka (do) (We skip over the fact that {pluka} expects an=20 event description in the first place, so the question is "really" about som= e=20 event involving the school and so should have teh subject-rasing {tu'a} in= =20 front of it. =C2=A0don't worry about that yet) =C2=A0The original is "Is it= a scholarly=20 pleasure?" =C2=A0 >=20 > lumci ledo fe xance >=20 ko lumci ledo xance (the {fe} would go before {ledo} but is unneeded since= =20 the sumti is in the right place) > ko cliva klaji > get out of the street >=20 ko cliva le klaji (seems more of an abandonment, but I can't think of a=20 better word) > pe=E2=80=99u ko zutse ledo stizu > sit in your chair >=20 Yup. > ko smaji > be quiet >=20 And yup again. A really nice start! --part1_c3.fb06185.2808bc66_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en In a message dated 4/13/2001 2:05:18 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
jay.kominek@colorado.edu writes:

> ko gasnu vorme ganlo
> shut the door

ko te ganlo le vorme

The list is ambiguous, but I am pretty sure that in
x1 (portal/passage/entrance-way) is closed/shut/not open, preventing=20
passage/access to x2 by x3
x3 is prevented passage or access, not the agent of the closed/shut/not= =20
open-ness.

In a message dated 4/13/2001 1:20:52 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
david@shockey.com writes:

The big problem is the distinction between sumti and selbri (nouns and = verbs,=20
as we would say in English): you don't make it, so you get long complex= =20
selbri (verb phrases) with no objects

pe=E2=80=99u ko klama vi
come here

OK, maybe {ko vi klama} =C2=A0is more lojbanic, but saying that can sta= rt a row.

pe=E2=80=99u ko dunda cukta mi
give me the book

This says "Please be a giving book about me" =C2=A0You want {pe'u ko du= nda le=20
cukta mi}, if you have a patiuclar book in mind or {pe'u ko dunda lo cu= kta=20
mi} for a book, whatever comes to hand.

ko jinru
take a bath

OK (we will not at this point get fussy about what the child is to imme= rse=20
himself in and what he is to do in it, though given a six-year-old's=20
jesuitical strain, {ko lumci vo'a} might be safer)

pe=E2=80=99u ko jgari mi
give me a hug

On the same ground, watch out for clutching and choking.

ko gasnu vorme ganlo=20
shut the door

This gets complex. {gasnu} object is an event description , {lenu...}, = in=20
this case that the door (a specific one, I assume) is closed: le vorme = cu=20
ganlo ({cu} to mark the beginning of the selbri -- or the end of the su= mti).=20
=C2=A0So the whole comes to=20
{ko gasnu lenu le vorme cu ganlo} =C2=A0(The original said --whatever i= t may mean=20
-- "Be agent doorly shut")

xu skule pluka
was school fun?

xu le ckule cu pluka (do) (We skip over the fact that {pluka} expects a= n=20
event description in the first place, so the question is "really" about= some=20
event involving the school and so should have teh subject-rasing {tu'a}= in=20
front of it. =C2=A0don't worry about that yet) =C2=A0The original is "I= s it a scholarly=20
pleasure?" =C2=A0

lumci ledo fe xance
wash your hands

ko lumci ledo xance (the {fe} would go before {ledo} but is unneeded si= nce=20
the sumti is in the right place)

ko cliva klaji
get out of the street

ko cliva le klaji (seems more of an abandonment, but I can't think of a= =20
better word)

pe=E2=80=99u ko zutse led= o stizu
sit in your chair

Yup.

ko smaji
be quiet

And yup again.

A really nice start!
--part1_c3.fb06185.2808bc66_boundary--