From pycyn@aol.com Mon Apr 16 17:06:54 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Pycyn@aol.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 17 Apr 2001 00:06:54 -0000 Received: (qmail 97581 invoked from network); 17 Apr 2001 00:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 17 Apr 2001 00:06:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO imo-m10.mx.aol.com) (64.12.136.165) by mta3 with SMTP; 17 Apr 2001 00:06:53 -0000 Received: from Pycyn@aol.com by imo-m10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.14.) id r.95.96b35ab (17086) for ; Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <95.96b35ab.280ce30f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:06:39 EDT Subject: Re: [lojban] Message #1 (aka then what ARE tanru?!) To: lojban@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_95.96b35ab.280ce30f_boundary" Content-Disposition: Inline X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10519 From: pycyn@aol.com --part1_95.96b35ab.280ce30f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/16/2001 5:28:07 PM Central Daylight Time, biomass@hobbiton.org writes: > I suggest for anyone interested to real the entire message, even though > it's build as a lame RPG book. > > Let me start by asking, how one would > translate "blue house" into english. Would it be "blanu zdani"? But that > So could "blue house." And it could mean several other things as well, not all of which are possible for {blanu zdani}, which probably has some possibilities not open to "blue house" in English OK, but it seems like a jump, especially in a logical language. > > Which brings me to Question A: > Rarely, if ever (I know of a clear case, but zoning laws keep its kind from happening most places in the US.) If your answer is Yes, continue to Question E. > If not, continue to Question B. > > Question B: > How would you translate "blue house" into Lojban, pertainig the gfact that > {blanu zdani} or, if you want to spell it out {zdani co zmadu lo'e zdani leka blanu} > Continue to Question E. > > Question E: > Yes, part of the definition of a logical language and {e} within it. > > > Question F: > But wouldn't "blanu je zdani" mean that the blueness and the house-ness of > the sumti are independant, whereas "blue house" says that the house is blue > Very likely, though not carved in stone for this particular case. > Yes -> G > No -> H > > > > Question G: > How would I say \, something that is a house, and is blue relative to > See tanru above at Question B. You can get out of that tanru too with a bit more work (quite a bit, as it turns out unless you start messing with {poi} and {voi} which make life easier). > End. > > > Question H: > > CORRECT. zo'o > This is how I see it, after Adam gave me the insight that actually any > word in context with the tanru helps you to understand its > meaning/connection/context. So why not have blanu je zdani have the > Why not use the simpler form altogether? But, since you ask, because then you have to have the conteext of zdani in blanu je zdani derived from blanu, and that is not at all clear how to do (it's more like a house that the typical [!] blue thing?) and it means {je} is no longer symmetric. > End. > > Question J: > Then what is the difference, and then what would > mean? It's blue in a big way? > What is the presupposition of this question? The difference between what and what? "big and blue," probably not either "blue in a big way" or "big in a blue way," both predicates are presumably relativized appropriately to the subject matter. --part1_95.96b35ab.280ce30f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/16/2001 5:28:07 PM Central Daylight Time,
biomass@hobbiton.org writes:

I suggest for anyone interested to real the entire message, even though
it's build as a lame RPG book.

Let me start by asking, how one would
translate "blue house" into english. Would it be "blanu zdani"? But that
could mean a house for blue inhabitants.

So could "blue house." And it could mean several other things as well, not
all of which are possible for {blanu zdani}, which probably has some
possibilities not open to "blue house" in English

<Tehn I assume "blanu je zdani" would be the correct way.>
OK, but it seems like a jump, especially in a logical language.

Which brings me to Question A:
Would "blue house" be equivelant in meaning to "blanu je zdani"?

Rarely, if ever (I know of a clear case, but zoning laws keep its kind from
happening most places in the US.)
If your answer is Yes, continue to Question E.

If not, continue to Question B.

Question B:
How would you translate "blue house" into Lojban, pertainig the gfact that
it is the house that is blue?

{blanu zdani} or, if you want to spell it out {zdani co zmadu lo'e zdani leka
blanu}

Continue to Question E.

Question E:
Is "blanu je zdani" the same as "zdani je blanu"?

Yes, part of the definition of a logical language and {e} within it.

Question F:
But wouldn't "blanu je zdani" mean that the blueness and the house-ness of
the sumti are independant, whereas "blue house" says that the house is blue
relative to other houses?

Very likely, though not carved in stone for this particular case.

Yes -> G
No -> H

Question G:
How would I say \, something that is a house, and is blue relative to
other houses, without using a plain tanru like "blanu zdani"?

See tanru above at Question B. You can get out of that tanru too with a bit
more work (quite a bit, as it turns out unless you start messing with {poi}
and {voi} which make life easier).

End.

Question H:

CORRECT. zo'o
This is how I see it, after Adam gave me the insight that actually any
word in context with the tanru helps you to understand its
meaning/connection/context. So why not have blanu je zdani have the
context of blanu derived from zdani?

Why not use the simpler form altogether? But, since you ask, because then
you have to have the conteext of zdani in blanu je zdani derived from blanu,
and that is not at all clear how to do (it's more like a house that the
typical [!] blue thing?) and it means {je} is no longer symmetric.

End.

Question J:
Then what is the difference, and then what would <blanu je barda>
mean? It's blue in a big way?

What is the presupposition of this question? The difference between what and
what?
"big and blue," probably not either "blue in a big way" or "big in a blue
way," both predicates are presumably relativized appropriately to the subject
matter. --part1_95.96b35ab.280ce30f_boundary--