Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:not only

From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:56:52 -0400

At 01:21 PM 04/20/2001 -0400, [email-masked] wrote:
>In a message dated 4/19/2001 5:54:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
>[email-masked] writes:
>>. One reason [for adopting the simple predicate form for colors, rather
>>than the comparative] was a realization from prototype theory that word
>>meanings
>>(especially of colors) simply are NOT comparative to a typical in nature,
>>but rather reflect closeness to an archtypical or prototypical concept of
>>blue. Thus "blue" is "less non-blue than any non-blue object, or something
>>to that effect, though even this formulation may break down at the borders
>>between colors.
>
>That is, a psychological theory about color recognition won out over a
>linguistic theory about how color terms function in language.

Except that the prototype theory was supported by Kay and Kempton's 
research in the early 80s (that which seemed to support Sapir-Whorf), which 
makes it a linguistic theory as well. But I don't think we knew that when 
we chose the place structure.

I don't see how the comparatives were a linguistic theory either - at least 
not one supported by any natlang evidence.

Nora adds that the comparative version ignored the fact that all the rest 
of Loglan used categories/prototypes. Why should colors be comparatives 
and not tables?
jubme as x1 is tablier than x2

Even among those things with a clearer scale like happy do not work well as 
comparatives "x1 is happier than x2 (about x3?) is rather beside the point.

>That sounds
>familiar. In any case we got rid of the Angstrom unit crew and the fights
>between the red-blue-whatevers and the cyan-magenta-whatevers -- and the
>color spindleists.

That indeed was another reason I forgot.

><Nora also had strong distaste for what is now "na se blanu", the negated
>converse, which IIRC JCB attached special meaning to.>
>I don't remember that but I do know what JCB could do with odd cases, so I
>can imagine that as a powerful motive.

Nora clarifies that this had something to do with the default place 
filler. She added the example, that a green object can be described as 
blanu because it is bluer than a red object (because green contains blue in 
additive colors). But it is na blanu because it is not bluer than a blue 
object. And if you change from additive to subtractive colors, what is 
true changes.

lojbab
--
lojbab [email-masked]
Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc.
2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org