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Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:22:31 EDT
Subject: Re: [lojban] RE:not only
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In a message dated 4/20/2001 9:41:38 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
lojbab@lojban.org writes:

cowan:
> <Quine, whose book >Quiddities< explains a clear
> >and general method for restating "only" in the language of predicate log=
ic
> >(which is of course what Lojban is about):> Identity...>
> > > A vital use of identity lurks unobserved in much of our use
> > > of 'only' and 'else' and 'nothing but'. When I say that the hiding
> > > place is known to Ralph and only him, nobody else, I mean to
> > > say two things: that Ralph knows the hiding place and that
> > > whoever knows the hiding place is identical with Ralph. To
> > > say that there is no God but Allah is to affirm, of whatever
> > > Gods there be, that Each, or He, is identical with Allah.
> >These two examples go directly into Lojban thus:
> > ro da poi djuno fi le velmipri stuzi du la ralf.
> > all x1s which know-about the secret-method place are-identical-=
to=20
> > Ralph
> > ro da poi cevni du la .alax.
> > all x1s which are-gods are-identical-to Allah
> >Here are more examples showing the flexibility of this "da poi... du"=20
> >construct:
> > la djordj. du ro da poi darxi le tamni fo le nazbi
> > George is-identical-to all those who hit the cousin on the nose=
.
> > Only George hit his cousin on his nose.
> >(Note that English is over-specific by Lojban standards in saying "his=20
> >cousin".
> >and "his nose". Likewise, English idiomatically says "He put his hands =
in=20
> his
> >pockets": to speakers of other languages, the question naturally arises
> >"Whose pockets would he put his hands in?", and even more peculiar, "Who=
se
> >hands would he put in his pockets?".)
> > ro da poi la djordj. darxi ke'a fo le nazbi du le tamne
> > All those whom George hit on the nose are-identical-with the=20
> cousin.
> > George hit only his cousin on his nose.
> > ro da poi la djordj. darxi le tamne fo ke'a du le nazbi
> > All that which George hit his cousin on are-identical-with the=
=20
> nose
> > George hit his cousin only on his nose.
> > George hit his cousin on his nose only.>
I am not generally a fan of Quine's (wrote a paper that showed a certain=20
theory as the way to go and ever after claimed the paper refuted the theory=
),=20
but this is nice and clear. Note, please, that he needs "Ralph and only=20
Ralph" to get in that Ralph knows -- "only Ralph" does not doe it by itself=
.

jimc, citing colin fine
<The word "only" was one of the first that I broke my
>teeth on.=A0 Here is a short list of meanings, supplementing what Colinwro=
te:
>(1)=A0 =A0=A0 The only way is love=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 There is exactly=
one X which is
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 a tadji (way), AND X is love
>(2)=A0 =A0=A0 I ate only two cookies=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I ate two cookies,=
AND two is less
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 than the expected number for this
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 situation
>(3)=A0 =A0=A0 I only ate two cookies=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I ate two cookies,=
AND that event
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 is less than what would normally
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 justify the criticism or punishment
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 that you are putting me through
>(4)=A0 =A0=A0 She is only a servant=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 She is a servant=
, AND this condition
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 implies a social status that is less
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 than what is normally expected for
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0=A0 the present situation
>(5)=A0 =A0=A0 Smoke if you want, only not=A0 =A0=A0 Smoke if you want [dis=
cursive of
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 where I can smell it.=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 contrast] d=
on't smoke where...
>Thus, as Colin points out, the keyword "only" is very ambiguous and should
>be avoided, and the English word is Protean (not Procrustean).
>Syntactically in these examples, "only" is a 1-word abbreviation for a
>deep structure consisting of a rather complicated supplementary
>subordinate clause.>
On 1, I would say there is at most one way "All ways are love"
On 2, we did something a while back {nore} as I recall
On 4, ga'i the converse, snob to the toady discussed earlier for honorifics
On 5 ije ku'i
1 is where we still fight, 3 needs a solution alike in spirit, though=20
obviously not in form to 2.=20=20
The final conclusion here seems wrong:"only" is not a unitary phenomenon bu=
t=20
the surface of a variety of deeps structure which happen to have fallen=20
together phonetically (even morphologically, perhaps).

<kau, li'o, sa'a and possibly mi'i and pe'a all are UI discursives that=20
change the logical content in significant ways.=A0 kau seems most clearly=20
similar to po'o in that it hides a long-winded logical expansion that few=20
people know how to express.>
{mi'i} isn't UI and the others, with the possible exception of {kau} don't=
=20
effect content in a logical way (deletion and insertion, for example, are=20
hardly logical operations, and {pe'a} modifies the meaning, not the structu=
re=20
of the sentence. It is encouraging to think that SOMEONE knows (or has eve=
n=20
a clue) of how {kau} works. Names?=20=20=20


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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#ffffff"><FONT SIZE=3D=
2>In a message dated 4/20/2001 9:41:38 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
<BR>lojbab@lojban.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>cowan:
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3DCITE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN=
-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&lt;Quine, whose book &gt=
;Quiddities&lt; explains a clear
<BR>&gt;and general method for restating "only" in the language of predicat=
e logic
<BR>&gt;(which is of course what Lojban is about):&gt; Identity...&gt;
<BR>&gt; &gt; A vital use of identity lurks unobserved in much of our use
<BR>&gt; &gt; of 'only' and 'else' and 'nothing but'. &nbsp;When I say that=
the hiding
<BR>&gt; &gt; place is known to Ralph and only him, nobody else, I mean to
<BR>&gt; &gt; say two things: that Ralph knows the hiding place and that
<BR>&gt; &gt; whoever knows the hiding place is identical with Ralph. &nbsp=
;To
<BR>&gt; &gt; say that there is no God but Allah is to affirm, of whatever
<BR>&gt; &gt; Gods there be, that Each, or He, is identical with Allah.
<BR>&gt;These two examples go directly into Lojban thus:
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ro da poi djuno fi=
le velmipri stuzi du la ralf.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all x1s which know=
-about the secret-method place are-identical-to=20
<BR>&gt; Ralph
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ro da poi cevni du=
la .alax.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all x1s which are-=
gods are-identical-to Allah
<BR>&gt;Here are more examples showing the flexibility of this "da poi... d=
u"=20
<BR>&gt;construct:
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;la djordj. du ro d=
a poi darxi le tamni fo le nazbi
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;George is-identica=
l-to all those who hit the cousin on the nose.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Only George hit hi=
s cousin on his nose.
<BR>&gt;(Note that English is over-specific by Lojban standards in saying "=
his=20
<BR>&gt;cousin".
<BR>&gt;and "his nose". &nbsp;Likewise, English idiomatically says "He put =
his hands in=20
<BR>his
<BR>&gt;pockets": to speakers of other languages, the question naturally ar=
ises
<BR>&gt;"Whose pockets would he put his hands in?", and even more peculiar,=
"Whose
<BR>&gt;hands would he put in his pockets?".)
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ro da poi la djord=
j. darxi ke'a fo le nazbi du le tamne
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;All those whom Geo=
rge hit on the nose are-identical-with the=20
<BR>cousin.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;George hit only hi=
s cousin on his nose.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;ro da poi la djord=
j. darxi le tamne fo ke'a du le nazbi
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;All that which Geo=
rge hit his cousin on are-identical-with the=20
<BR>nose
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;George hit his cou=
sin only on his nose.
<BR>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;George hit his cou=
sin on his nose only.&gt;</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>I am not generally a fan of Quine's (wrote a paper that showed a certai=
n=20
<BR>theory as the way to go and ever after claimed the paper refuted the th=
eory),=20
<BR>but this is nice and clear. &nbsp;Note, please, that he needs "Ralph an=
d only=20
<BR>Ralph" to get in that Ralph knows -- "only Ralph" does not doe it by it=
self.
<BR>
<BR>jimc, citing colin fine
<BR>&lt;The word "only" was one of the first that I broke my
<BR>&gt;teeth on.=A0 Here is a short list of meanings, supplementing what C=
olinwrote:
<BR>&gt;(1)=A0 =A0=A0 The only way is love=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 There is =
exactly one X which is
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 a tadji (way), AND X is love
<BR>&gt;(2)=A0 =A0=A0 I ate only two cookies=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I ate two c=
ookies, AND two is less
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 than the expected number for this
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 situation
<BR>&gt;(3)=A0 =A0=A0 I only ate two cookies=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 I ate two c=
ookies, AND that event
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 is less than what would normally
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 justify the criticism or punishment
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 that you are putting me through
<BR>&gt;(4)=A0 =A0=A0 She is only a servant=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 She is a =
servant, AND this condition
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 implies a social status that is less
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 than what is normally expected for
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 the present situation
<BR>&gt;(5)=A0 =A0=A0 Smoke if you want, only not=A0 =A0=A0 Smoke if you wa=
nt [discursive of
<BR>&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 where I can smell it.=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 cont=
rast] don't smoke where...
<BR>&gt;Thus, as Colin points out, the keyword "only" is very ambiguous and=
should
<BR>&gt;be avoided, and the English word is Protean (not Procrustean).
<BR>&gt;Syntactically in these examples, "only" is a 1-word abbreviation fo=
r a
<BR>&gt;deep structure consisting of a rather complicated supplementary
<BR>&gt;subordinate clause.&gt;
<BR>On 1, I would say there is at most one way "All ways are love"
<BR>On 2, we did something a while back {nore} as I recall
<BR>On 4, ga'i the converse, snob to the toady discussed earlier for honori=
fics
<BR>On 5 ije ku'i
<BR>1 is where we still fight, 3 needs a solution alike in spirit, though=20
<BR>obviously not in form to 2. &nbsp;
<BR>The final conclusion here seems wrong:"only" is not a unitary phenomeno=
n but=20
<BR>the surface of a variety of deeps structure which happen to have fallen=
=20
<BR>together phonetically (even morphologically, perhaps).
<BR>
<BR>&lt;kau, li'o, sa'a and possibly mi'i and pe'a all are UI discursives t=
hat=20
<BR>change the logical content in significant ways.=A0 kau seems most clear=
ly=20
<BR>similar to po'o in that it hides a long-winded logical expansion that f=
ew=20
<BR>people know how to express.&gt;
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D1 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"A=
rial" LANG=3D"0">{mi'i} isn't UI and the others, with the possible exceptio=
n of {kau} don't=20
<BR>effect content in a logical way (deletion and insertion, for example, a=
re=20
<BR>hardly logical operations, and {pe'a} modifies the meaning, not the str=
ucture=20
<BR>of the sentence. &nbsp;It is encouraging to think that SOMEONE knows (o=
r has even=20
<BR>a clue) of how {kau} works. &nbsp;&nbsp;Names? &nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT><FONT=
COLOR=3D"#000000" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"=
>
<BR></FONT></HTML>

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