From lojbab@lojban.org Thu Apr 26 12:39:58 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 26 Apr 2001 19:39:58 -0000 Received: (qmail 18498 invoked from network); 26 Apr 2001 19:39:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 26 Apr 2001 19:39:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-3.cais.net) (205.252.14.73) by mta2 with SMTP; 26 Apr 2001 19:39:57 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org (19.dynamic.cais.com [207.226.56.19]) by stmpy-3.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3QJdp607339 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426152559.00c8bc10@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:42:40 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] djataurte In-Reply-To: <20010426095910.U8953@digitalkingdom.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010426021004.00c31d90@127.0.0.1> <01042523234609.02780@neofelis> <4.3.2.7.2.20010426021004.00c31d90@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 09:59 AM 04/26/2001 -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >On Thu, Apr 26, 2001 at 02:16:09AM -0400, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote: > > At 11:19 PM 04/25/2001 -0400, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > >I found "djataurte" in translations/alice/NEW_WORDS meaning "tart". > This is a > > >fu'ivla, but it's a type 4, > > > > If it has a rafsi in the front, it is clearly intended to be a type 3. > > > > This is precisely the sort of word that MUST be a type 3 and not a type > > 4. After all, "tart" has three completely distinct meanings in English (a > > food, a flavor property, and a slang description of a woman with loose > > morals) and who knows how many its Lojban counterpart might have in all > the > > world's languages. How can we say at this stage of usage which of the > > multiple meanings should apply to the type 4 wordform - only 1 is allowed. > > > > >so why does it begin with "dja"? Type 3 fu'ivla > > >shouldn't be made from CCV or CVV rafsi anyway. > > > > There is nothing illegal about using them - it just can't be assumed that > > the fu'ivla will be well-formed when one works with those rafsi. > >As someone who knows very little about fu'ivla formation: > >Is djataurte legal as it stands or not? If not, what do we do with it? >It's supposed to refer to the food, btw. There is nothing that I can see "illegal" about it, but we don't have any official standards of legality other than the word be a brivla, not a gismu or a lujvo, and not a word that breaks up into shorter components under specific conditions. I don't see a reason it would break up, but this is still an art - we have no formal algorithm to test fu'ivla (something someone programmically inclined might be able to develop, but the algorithm will be tricky to develop and even harder to prove correct). So you either have to make them with CVCr[lojbanized form] or take your chances. As for whether it is a "good" fu'ivla - I think it could be better. It is not clear why you turned "tart" into "taurta" other then to make it a non-lujvo when prefixed by the "dja". Generally the standard has been to doctor the attachment to the rafsi rather than the borrowed portion, and as Pierre said, not to use CCV rafsi. I would thus be inclined to make it "nabrtarte" if I were inventing the word myself (the -e ending based solely on the etymology in my dictionary), since "bread" is more specific than "food" as to the meaning. "rut" or "tit" or even "tis" would also be useful prefixes, and "tis" might be superior in some contexts because there will likely be few fu'ivla based on the concept of "tisna" (though people may not realize then that it is a kind of food). So maybe the proper thing to do is make a lujvo, based on grute-tisna-nanba (rutytisnanba or maybe just tisnanba). lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org