From lojbab@lojban.org Mon Apr 30 16:07:18 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: lojbab@lojban.org X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 30 Apr 2001 23:07:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 58850 invoked from network); 30 Apr 2001 23:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 Apr 2001 23:07:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO stmpy-5.cais.net) (205.252.14.75) by mta3 with SMTP; 30 Apr 2001 23:07:09 -0000 Received: from bob.lojban.org (209-8-89-145.dial-up.cais.com [209.8.89.145] (may be forged)) by stmpy-5.cais.net (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f3UN77M95492 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010430185633.00c5e1b0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: vir1036/pop.cais.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 19:10:06 -0400 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Predicate logic and childhood. In-Reply-To: <20010430154749.E27753@digitalkingdom.org> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010430175548.00ace2b0@127.0.0.1> <4.3.2.7.2.20010430171850.00b16cd0@127.0.0.1> <20010430155318.B504@twcny.rr.com> <20010430114521.C20818@digitalkingdom.org> <20010430155318.B504@twcny.rr.com> <20010430140028.A27753@digitalkingdom.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010430171850.00b16cd0@127.0.0.1> <20010430144802.B27753@digitalkingdom.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20010430175548.00ace2b0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed From: "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" At 03:47 PM 04/30/2001 -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >On Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 06:44:27PM -0400, Bob LeChevalier (lojbab) wrote: > > At 02:48 PM 04/30/2001 -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > >2. What is the use of conditionals other than .e? > > > > Well, "a" expressing alternation (and anai for conditional) has a pretty > > clear usage, and onai for exclusive-or does as well. > >anai does not have a clear usage, or we wouldn't be having this >discussion. It has a clear meaning and usage, but it just happens that this clear meaning and usage is NOT that of the colloquial language "conditional", which is usually a time or causal connection. There are times when it is the right thing to use, and this again is going to be mostly about logical arguments wherein statements could either be true or false and it is indeterminate for purposes of the argument which is the case. For statements about reality, we are generally ONLY concerned with true statements and do not generally express false ones without explicitly marking them as hypotheticals or suppositionals or counterfactuals of some kind. > > But the use of logical connectives in general is based on the > > assumption, probably false, that language is attempting to express > > logical truth. By insisting that the language connectives follow the > > rules of logic strictly, people will either start thinking in a manner > > that reflects those rules or they will avoid the use of connectives > > (or they will break the rules). This is a key design feature for the > > original purpose of the language as a test of Sapir-Whorf, though I > > personally think that the formal logical aspects of Lojban don't come > > into play enough that it will matter much. > >Thank you for failing to answer the question. 8) You're welcome $%) >No-one has yet managed to tell me what possible use, in actual >communication, things like o and anai have. .anai is probably a proper usage to translate "If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride". My wife and I HAVE used .anai and na.a on occasion in Lojban conversation. "o" is possibly useful when one wants to say that two sentences mean essentially the same thing or would be true under the same conditions; I am not sure that I have ever used it unless it fell out of an onai involving a negation. But you seem to be denying the possibility that logical argument is a valid purpose of "actual communication". Political discussions seem like ripe possibilities for logical connectives. But political discussions are not statements about reality, but rather about ideas, so that the truth conditions are somewhat more uncertain than when you are telling your kid what to do. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, President, The Logical Language Group, Inc. 2904 Beau Lane, Fairfax VA 22031-1303 USA 703-385-0273 Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org