From a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com Sat May 05 14:48:57 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: a.rosta@dtn.ntl.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 5 May 2001 21:48:57 -0000 Received: (qmail 80748 invoked from network); 5 May 2001 21:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 5 May 2001 21:48:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta01-svc.ntlworld.com) (62.253.162.41) by mta2 with SMTP; 5 May 2001 21:48:57 -0000 Received: from andrew ([62.252.12.150]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.27 201-229-119-110) with SMTP id <20010505214855.XZTB283.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@andrew> for ; Sat, 5 May 2001 22:48:55 +0100 To: Subject: imperatives & scope (was: RE: Predicate logic and childhood.) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 22:47:57 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <18.c464136.282365bb@aol.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 From: "And Rosta" pc: > arosta@uclan.ac.uk writes: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > ko broda da > > means > > I hereby command that there be some da such that do broda da > > and not > > There is some da such that I hereby command that do broda da > > which cannot be expressed in Lojban satisfactorily. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > {da zo'u ko broda da} and probably {da se broda ko}. Structure words > aside, extending scope requires anaphora of the scope determiner (here > ko = do). Three responses. 1. Your proposal is counter to current convention, which is that {ko} means "make this sentence true if {ko} were replaced by {do}". 2. Your proposal seems unable to cope with the contrast between (b) and (c): a. "I command that you cause her to eat something." ="I command that you cause that there be something that she eats." b. "I command that there be something that you cause her to eat." c. "There is something that I command you to cause her to eat." 3. There are much more common and more serious problems with the scope of imperative operators than ones like (a-c). Consider (d/d'): d. Make a note of my telephone number. d'. Make a note of a telephone number of mine. This means (e/e'): e. For my telephone number, make it the case that you make a note of it. e'. For a telephone number of mine, make it the case that you make a note of it. It does NOT mean (f): f. Make it the case that you make a note of my telephone number. f'. Make it the case that you make a note of a telephone number of mine. -- for these would be satisfied if you wrote down any old number but then took steps to make sure that the phone company assigned this number to me. --And.