From Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Sun May 20 05:56:29 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 20 May 2001 12:56:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 19783 invoked from network); 20 May 2001 12:56:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 20 May 2001 12:56:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hk.egroups.com) (10.1.10.43) by mta1 with SMTP; 20 May 2001 12:56:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: Ti@fa-kuan.muc.de Received: from [10.1.2.109] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 20 May 2001 12:56:28 -0000 Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:56:23 -0000 To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: decline of the english language Message-ID: <9e8etn+ki68@eGroups.com> In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010520051530.00cfe780@127.0.0.1> User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Length: 4623 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 193.149.49.79 From: "A.W.T." --- In lojban@y..., "Bob LeChevalier (lojbab)" wrote: > At 11:56 PM 05/19/2001 +0200, =3D?utf-8?q?Bj=3DC3=3DB6rn=3D20Gohla?=3D wr= ote: > >coi rodo > >in the lojban faq it reads: > > ... > > This dominance, and a heritage of colonialism > > and imperialism that built resentment towards American and Euro= =3D=0D pean > > impositions on native culture, has caused recent movements in o= =3D=0D ther > > countries away from English. The rising influence of Japan and= =3D=0D > > other countries on world economics, science, and technology mak= =3D=0D es=20 > > further > > declines in English's universality likely. > > ... > > > >when was this written? >=20 > First written in 1989, but still true today. >=20 > >my experience is the exact opposite. in fact > >being a cand. phys. all the advanced literature i use is in english, eit= =3D=0D her > >because it will not be available in german for a long time or it is chea= =3D=0D per > >anyway. >=20 > In science, English is the dominant international language, but there has= =3D=0D =20 > been a succession of international languages (Latin, then French, then=20 > German and Russian as well as English) so that it is hard to predict the = =3D=0D > future. But on the Internet, the percentage of postings not in English i= =3D=0D s=20 > rising steadily. Recently, there was a nice and refreshing article by Marcia Pally from "New= =3D=0D York Times" published in "Die S=FCddeutsche Zeitung"=20 and titled in the German version (partly translated) as "For das Echte, the= =3D=0D re is kein Ersatz - With languages, there's no purity=20 requirement: dominant English itself is a bastard". The article's dealing w= =3D=0D ith the misgivings (mainly) in France, Germany - but=20 even in Romania(!) etc. fearing the bastardization of their national langua= =3D=0D ges by the "English" language, ... concluding with "tune in=20 to English - this kvetching is really fucked off" (Also, tuned euch ein ins= =3D=0D Englische - dieses Kvetching [Jiddisch, auch ein deutscher=20 Dialekt], dieses Jammern ist doch abgefuckt). Essentially, it states that t= =3D=0D here's no harm for languages being influenced/mixed up=20 with others, otherwise (the non-Latin-bastardized) French would be kind of = =3D=0D a celtic German and (without Greek influence)=20 interpreters in the UN would keep on murmuring some Aramaic. "English" its= =3D=0D elf originally isn't/wasn't anything else than a=20 slovenly muddle of German and French*, the language in rural Texas is gramm= =3D=0D atically unanalyzable and in Scotland or Wales=20 existing no English at all. (* Out of the mainstream, e.g. in the Bronx, it= =3D=0D 's something else anyway as the a lecture's title, given of=20 the Applied Linguistics Conference, is demonstrating: "You gon' be ma bitch= =3D=0D boy - Hegemonial building of identity in narratives=20 (?!)".) My own point on this issue always has been comparable to that: The common a= =3D=0D nd wide spread use of the English language (e.g. by=20 people like me!), be it all around the world, in the former colonies, in Au= =3D=0D stralia, the US, Scotland, Wales, Ireland - or even outside=20 the British Royal Family ;-) - did and still is doing "harm" to the languag= =3D=0D e. But should this be lamented? Should we complain about=20 the fact that modern "American" structurally has shifted from a flective to= =3D=0D an isolate-type monosyllabic language comparable to=20 Chinese? This is giving me the cue: I'm sure that "English" will still be g= =3D=0D oing on to be the "leading" and pre-dominant language in=20 the world for a while, the "lingua franca" for at least some more decades o= =3D=0D f this new century. But it always only had depended on=20 political power and influence to assign this role to a language regardless= =3D=0D of its grammar being difficult to learn or its vocabulary=20 being hard to pronounce (English!!) or memorize. So, I'd say - it's Chinese= =3D=0D we all will have to learn in order to communicate with=20 each other in the future! Forget Japanese! (BTW, the modern Uighur romaniza= =3D=0D tion - which is all ASCII! - would be much more=20 appropriate for the Net than Hanyu Pinyin - without the tones expressed. Bu= =3D=0D t - again - it only depends on political power and not=20 reason. So I'd at least -nontheless hopelessly - beg for future use of Gwoy= =3D=0D eu Romatzyh on the Net!) Until then our "lingua franca" surely will go on developing in the *modern = =3D=0D trend* along the Churchill words "Yunno, make a like a=20 fuckin list of yunno like German words in like yunno English to show the yu= =3D=0D nno the fuckin language, yunno like the fuckin bond"=20 (Folks are forever wanting me to make lists of German words in English to s= =3D=0D how the language bond). co'o mi'e .aulun.