From edward.cherlin.sy.67@aya.yale.edu Tue May 22 11:41:20 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: edward.cherlin.sy.67@aya.yale.edu X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 22 May 2001 18:41:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 34533 invoked from network); 22 May 2001 18:40:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 22 May 2001 18:40:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO mta5.snfc21.pbi.net) (206.13.28.241) by mta3 with SMTP; 22 May 2001 18:40:40 -0000 Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([216.103.90.93]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.01.05.12.18.p9) with ESMTP id <0GDR00IQJ2EEEN@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for lojban@yahoogroups.com; Tue, 22 May 2001 11:37:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:37:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [lojban] udhr In-reply-to: <01052213430502.00799@linux> X-Sender: cherlin@postoffice.pacbell.net To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable References: <01052213430502.00799@linux> From: Edward Cherlin At 1:43 PM +0200 5/22/01, Bj=F6rn Gohla wrote: >On Sunday 20 May 2001 19:16, Jorge Llambias wrote: > > The declaration seems to be a statement about how things are, >> not how they should be, so I wouldn't use {ei} there. Also, >> the "born" part is missing. Maybe: >i thought about that, but one can not deny that the declaration has a >normative aspect, it does not concede any choice whether this proposition = is >valid. how could this be expressed? How about an imperative with e'osai? "Make it so..." This sentence is not a proposition with a truth value, but a=20 requirement. In English, we can use "let" with the subjunctive, as in=20 "... let no man put [it] asunder." Perhaps the Declaration should=20 have said "Let no one be denied these rights, which are theirs from=20 birth" or "Let everyone be accorded these rights...". Alternatively you could use the modal in English, "No government may=20 deny these rights to anyone, or allow them to be denied." The U.S. Constitution uses "shall" to express requirements. "The=20 President shall have the power..." "Congress shall make no law..." In peripherally related matters... Pierre is working on "y'hee or" "Let there be light". Perhaps he=20 would care to weigh in. At some point I intend to tackle Euclid. He uses the word,=20 "epezeuchthosan" "Let it have been placed" in the past passive=20 imperative. An imaginary forced march. :-) --=20 co'o mi'e ed. .i e'osai la lojban pluka ko