From jjllambias@hotmail.com Tue May 22 19:50:28 2001 Return-Path: X-Sender: jjllambias@hotmail.com X-Apparently-To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_3); 23 May 2001 02:50:28 -0000 Received: (qmail 4380 invoked from network); 23 May 2001 02:49:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 23 May 2001 02:49:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hotmail.com) (216.33.241.176) by mta2 with SMTP; 23 May 2001 02:49:39 -0000 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 22 May 2001 19:49:39 -0700 Received: from 200.41.247.58 by lw8fd.law8.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 23 May 2001 02:49:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [200.41.247.58] To: lojban@yahoogroups.com Bcc: Subject: Re: [lojban] udhr Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 02:49:39 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 May 2001 02:49:39.0818 (UTC) FILETIME=[02EB34A0:01C0E333] From: "Jorge Llambias" la biorn cusku di'e >i thought about that, but one can not deny that the declaration has a >normative aspect, it does not concede any choice whether this proposition >is >valid. how could this be expressed? A simple statement does not concede any choice either. >ro remna cu se jinzi le ka zifre .i le go'i cu dunli vo'a le ka selsinma ku >.e le selflalu I suppose "are born free and equal" is ambiguous in English between "are (born free) and (equal)" on the one hand and "are born (free and equal)" on the other, but the Spanish version makes it clear that the second one is the one meant, so I still prefer {jinzi le ka zifre gi'e dunli}. As for {vo'a}, maybe. I don't think it has been decided yet whether {ro remna cu dunli vo'a} means that every human being is equal to every human being, or just that every human being is equal to him or herself. Both can be stated clearly in Lojban: {ro remna cu dunli ro remna} and {ro da poi remna cu dunli da}. I don't know which one corresponds to {ro remna cu dunli vo'a}. co'o mi'e xorxes _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.