Subject: loi (was Re: [lojban] Rosetta Project Genesis translation)

From: Edward Cherlin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:09:58 -0700

At 5:42 PM -0400 5/23/01, [email-masked] wrote:
>In a message dated 5/23/2001 3:42:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
>[email-masked] writes:
>
>>Okay, I see this translation referring to {loi danlu} and calling it a
>>"massified singular", glossing it as "Mr. Beast". I've seen this referred
>>to in
>>a few other old lojban discussions (but only once in the time I've been on
>>the
>>list). What the heck does this mean?
>>
>
>I haven't gotten to the details yet, but this one of those recurring
>discussions: What does {loi broda} mean? The short answer is "the mass of
>all lo broda," but that proves to be ignotum per ignotius and leads to
>various stories about what a mass is. One of these (Quine

In Quine's set theory and in many others, sets are commonly defined 
so that ( x | f(x) ) is the set of all x having the property f, where 
f is subject to certain syntactic restrictions. I find it much easier 
to deal with such sets using lo'i for many purposes than with the 
much fuzzier notions you get into below.

> or Trobriand
>Islanders?) is that the mass is an individual, each what we would call
>individual broda, is merely a manifestation of that individual (I think this
>may owe something to Christian theology, too), Mr. Broda. 

Jewish legend also uses such notions. In Kabala, G-d prepared several 
vessels, and divided off several parts of himself to put into the 
vessels, which were unable to contain his radiance, and broke. We are 
sparks of that radiance, now bound in vessels that can hold our tiny 
sparks, trying to rejoin ourselves to the original radiant splendor. 
In some versions, animals, plants, and even inanimate objects also 
hold sparks.

The idea of the ideal individual of which all instances are but 
shadows is of course Platonic Idealism.

There are, of course, numerous other forms of Idealism and pantheism.

>Another view is
>that a mass is a kind of goo and each individual is a piece of that goo. 

But then they aren't individuals, except on Deep Space Nine.

>Yet
>another is that a mass is a team of some sort. And there are several other
>tales, which I am trying to pull up out of the archives and put into some
>semblance of order for my (curiouser and curiouser as I "correct" problems)
>website.

You list three possible relations between the individuals and the 
"loi", corresponding to three different properties of all "loi". They 
can be

o individuals that have manifestations, like Platonic Ideals and various gods
o substances with extent but not individuality, like water
o "teams" that are not sets but have members, like...what?

Each of these supposedly grammatical theories is in fact an ontology. 
Since we can't very well agree on the correct ontology on behalf of 
the rest of humanity, it would be better if we had a way to specify 
an ontology explicitly when we needed it. That is however a can of 
worms that I am happy not to have to deal with the reality of.

Please note that in Buddhist ontology some things are said not to 
fall in any of the categories

Existence
Non-existence
Both existence and non-existence
Neither existence nor non-existence

>Reminders of these would be very welcome.

Well, let's see...How about

o Existence as an aggregate of matter in spacetime?
o Mathematical existence of types of objects, categories, or models?
o "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist." (Wittgenstein)?
o Paul Weiss's four modes of being (actuality, ideality, possibility, and God)?
o The mass of Plato's beard? ("...a tangled doctrine, which has often 
dulled the
edge of Occam's razor."--Quine)

How did this word get into Lojban in the first place? I understand 
lo'i (the set of individuals that...) but who thought of "mass of 
individuals" and what did *he* think he meant by it?

-- 
"I can prove anything you like by whatever means you may require of me,
for the very simple reason that I am a monstrous clever fellow."
Jurgen, A Comedy of Justice, by James Branch Cabell